The first cause argument
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25-04-2017, 03:23 AM
RE: The first cause argument
G'day mate, and welcome to the forum. Smile

(24-04-2017 10:46 AM)Torment Wrote:  Even Richard Dawkins, probably the most prominent advocate of atheism in our time, admitted in a Time magazine article that there may be something incredibly large, incomprehensible, and beyond our present understanding. Yes, and that's God!

This is an erroneous rendition of what Dawkins actually said to Francis Collins.

This is the correct quotation: "There could be something incredibly grand and incomprehensible and beyond our present understanding".

—Major difference.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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25-04-2017, 05:29 AM
RE: The first cause argument
Special pleading all the way down.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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25-04-2017, 06:14 AM
RE: The first cause argument
(25-04-2017 02:55 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(25-04-2017 02:14 AM)Norm Deplume Wrote:  It's odd how theists can be happy with the theory of relativity (and the theory of gravity) but the theory of evolution is "just a theory".

Not really. Creationism vs evolution boils down to their proclamation that
my grandpappy wain't no monkey!
Simple to understand for proponents of both sides...
The other stuff starts out with h and just gets more mathy from there. Tongue

It’s warn’t if I recollect my East Tennessee slang correctly. Smile

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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25-04-2017, 06:16 AM
RE: The first cause argument
(24-04-2017 08:48 PM)Torment Wrote:  Now there's these 2 dudes asking me for proof of evolution and the big bang.
I wonder why these people won't just google it?

People who will resort to ignoring or denying the facts, or who refuse to do their own research, obviously won't listen to you. They will just waste your time unless you want simply to post replies for lurkers who will also read what you write.
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25-04-2017, 07:03 AM
RE: The first cause argument
(24-04-2017 08:48 PM)Torment Wrote:  I just came to realize thay this is not worth my time, it's really frustrating, they'll deny everything because you can't see evolution or big bang happening, you know, those believer's common and hypocrital habits.

It's important to realize that online debates rarely change anyone's mind, it's usually just two different sides digging their heels in and refusing to budge.

If you decide to engage, it's probably best to ask- what can I accomplish by doing this? Will it actually achieve anything?

A lot of times on this forum, we get the kook of the week theist that's figured out something that they think is profound or insightful, when it's really just a pile of logical fallacies wrapped up in ignorance and bias.

So in those cases you point out these fallacies for the sake of other readers that may not even post in the thread.

It's the lurkers that you can help out with cogent and insightful replies. Your replies could end up being read as part of a Google search months or years later and have a solid impact on that person that is looking for answers.

(24-04-2017 08:48 PM)Torment Wrote:  Now there's these 2 dudes asking me for proof of evolution and the big bang.
I wonder why these people won't just google it?

This is tantamount to you winning this exchange, when they couldn't respond, they immediately try to shift the burden of proof, just take this as a small, but not exactly satisfying victory. Like you said, it's not worth your time.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-04-2017, 07:49 AM
RE: The first cause argument
(25-04-2017 07:03 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(24-04-2017 08:48 PM)Torment Wrote:  I just came to realize thay this is not worth my time, it's really frustrating, they'll deny everything because you can't see evolution or big bang happening, you know, those believer's common and hypocrital habits.

It's important to realize that online debates rarely change anyone's mind, it's usually just two different sides digging their heels in and refusing to budge.

If you decide to engage, it's probably best to ask- what can I accomplish by doing this? Will it actually achieve anything?

A lot of times on this forum, we get the kook of the week theist that's figured out something that they think is profound or insightful, when it's really just a pile of logical fallacies wrapped up in ignorance and bias.

So in those cases you point out these fallacies for the sake of other readers that may not even post in the thread.

It's the lurkers that you can help out with cogent and insightful replies. Your replies could end up being read as part of a Google search months or years later and have a solid impact on that person that is looking for answers.

(24-04-2017 08:48 PM)Torment Wrote:  Now there's these 2 dudes asking me for proof of evolution and the big bang.
I wonder why these people won't just google it?

This is tantamount to you winning this exchange, when they couldn't respond, they immediately try to shift the burden of proof, just take this as a small, but not exactly satisfying victory. Like you said, it's not worth your time.

+1

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25-04-2017, 08:09 AM
RE: The first cause argument
What's evolution or the Big Bang got to do with it?

This is the classic false dichotomy where woo peddlers claim that either the current scientific explanations for something are correct, or else it happened in some made-up way of their choosing.

If all scientific theories were suddenly found to be wrong (anyone who understands what a theory actually is knows how unlikely this is anyway) then we'd just be left with no explanation. Further investigation needed. Making up fairy stories does not help, except to make people feel better who are uncomfortable with not knowing everything.

As it happens, neither of these are concerned with the origin of our reality anyway. So they could go learn some stuff, or stay blissfully ignorant.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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25-04-2017, 09:48 PM
RE: The first cause argument
Also, we only have data about what happens to objects that exist within our reality. Even if it was true that all such objects require a cause (and it's worth looking up efficient and material causes here to see the equivocation that's often used), it doesn't follow that reality itself requires a cause. We have no data on what does or doesn't cause realities to appear.

Comparing reality to subsections of itself and making inferences is known as the fallacy of composition.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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