The foundational lie in the psyche
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16-07-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Here's the problem. If scripture is to be believed, mankind partook of the knowledge of good and evil despite God's warning. If so, then the fact that we experience evil to know the good, should not be blamed on God's indifference. Nor is any claim that He is powerless valid. Or shall I say, He is powerless to change what He himself has declared, without becoming a liar about what He first declared. Or shall I say, He can only change the outcome of what He Himself declared by sacrificing Himself.
I see you skipped the next part of my previous reply which renders everything you just said (or in essence repeated) moot.

And this is hilarious:
(16-07-2014 03:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Or shall I say, He is powerless to change what He himself has declared, without becoming a liar about what He first declared. Or shall I say, He can only change the outcome of what He Himself declared by sacrificing Himself.
You do realize that your omnipotent god knows everything in the future, right? So then he knew all of this would be the outcome before it ever happened and, if he had wanted it to be different, he would have made it different before it ever happened. But no, he chose exactly this entire situation with Adam and Eve, knowledge of good and evil, original sin, descendants suffering tremendously over the eating of an apple by their ancestors, etc.

Clearly your God chose that many kids would be raped or would suffer horrible, painful deaths. This is exactly how your god wanted it no matter how many contortions you put yourself through attempting to shift the blame elsewhere. It's your gods design, your god's desire, and your god is fully to blame.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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16-07-2014, 03:34 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  If they had no knowledge of good or evil how could they know it was wrong to do so?
Heh, wow... so obvious and yet that had never occurred to me. I had always assumed because they had been told it was wrong, they therefore knew it was wrong. But they couldn't understand "wrong" if they had no knowledge of good and evil. So how could they have sinned!

Wow, you just made my day - thanks! Thumbsup

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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16-07-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 09:49 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(15-07-2014 06:35 PM)childeye Wrote:  According to scripture, despite God's warning not to eat, mankind ate of the knowledge of good and evil. It should not be surprising that mankind experiences good and evil.

Quote:Hell yes, it's surprising. Every bit of it is God's design according to you. God created good and evil. God created the circumstances where a tree would impart the knowledge of both. God placed Adam and Eve in a position of temptation. God allowed the snake to be involved and increase that temptation. God created the environment whereby Adam and Eve's failing somehow mysteriously got passed on to all their innocent descendants along with not only the knowledge, but all the atrocious consequences. It's ALL God! God, being omnipotent, could easily have done whatever he was trying to accomplish with this some other more merciful, more sensible way, but he chose not to.
If I may correct one item you said that I disagree with. God did not create good and evil. He is the good. Apart from that, you are essentially correct. But we have not seen the ends of these things so as to declare God malevolent or powerless. As I see it, God cannot create children of Light in the Light. That is why Satan developed vanity, because of that circumstance. The children of Light have to be born in the midst of darkness so that there can be a pure and everlasting government and peoples.


Quote:
(15-07-2014 06:35 PM)childeye Wrote:  But God has sent his Son as a propitiation for sin and this Love that returns good for evil heals all sorrows.
But God sent his Son himself as propitiation atonement for his sin and this Love that returns good for evil heals all sorrows. admission of his mistakes accomplished nothing because evil and sorrow still abound.
I'm sorry if I misunderstand you, but are you saying God sends His son to the cross to admit His mistakes? That is not the case. The cross destroys the works of Satan who created enmity between man and God through a deception. The understanding of that is required to then understand how all sorrows will be healed. Of course evil and sorrow abound and it will get worse before it gets better. Why? Because when change happened in heaven, Satan was cast down to earth and he is trapped in time and intent on taking out his anger on those who Love God.
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16-07-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 02:58 PM)childeye Wrote:  I don't see how I could approve of the Truth of an emotion as good without knowing what emotions are good. Buy even so, I think goodness is perfectly rational.

Circular "logic" at it's finest. Your entire vacuous and shallow theology boils down to If A is false I will feel sad. I do not wish to feel sad so A is true.
It's more like dung tastes bad.
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16-07-2014, 03:45 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-07-2014 10:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Facepalm

Annnnnnd the tap dance continues...

He thinks (as per his usual) he's in "The Last person to post wins" thread.
Another 100 pages of crap. Seriously ? WTF is he doing here ?

Yes, this and also...

[Image: 5327E3E6-4640-4BD7-BB38-E926AA4849FE-243...9E3E2C.jpg]


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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16-07-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:41 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 03:02 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Circular "logic" at it's finest. Your entire vacuous and shallow theology boils down to If A is false I will feel sad. I do not wish to feel sad so A is true.
It's more like dung tastes bad.

Not a big coffee fan, huh. Kopi Luwak

#sigh
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16-07-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:40 PM)childeye Wrote:  If I may correct one item you said that I disagree with. God did not create good and evil. He is the good. Apart from that, you are essentially correct. But we have not seen the ends of these things so as to declare God malevolent or powerless. As I see it, God cannot create children of Light in the Light. That is why Satan developed vanity, because of that circumstance. The children of Light have to be born in the midst of darkness so that there can be a pure and everlasting government and peoples.
Haven't you read your Bible?

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
Quote:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

But it follows logically anyway from the belief that God existed before everything else. Therefore, everything else came from God, including evil.

(16-07-2014 03:40 PM)childeye Wrote:  I'm sorry if I misunderstand you, but are you saying God sends His son to the cross to admit His mistakes? That is not the case. The cross destroys the works of Satan who created enmity between man and God through a deception. The understanding of that is required to then understand how all sorrows will be healed. Of course evil and sorrow abound and it will get worse before it gets better. Why? Because when change happened in heaven, Satan was cast down to earth and he is trapped in time and intent on taking out his anger on those who Love God.
I am aware of the doctrine, but it makes no sense. If you have been following what I have been saying, Adam and Eve's "sin" was God's fault. Therefore, if there is any sin to necessitate Jesus' sacrifice, it is God's own mistakes that brought it about. If Satan was involved, it's only because God first made evil and temptation possible, then allowed it and all its ramifications knowing full well in advance exactly what would happen.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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16-07-2014, 04:06 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 03:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Here's the problem. If scripture is to be believed, mankind partook of the knowledge of good and evil despite God's warning. If so, then the fact that we experience evil to know the good, should not be blamed on God's indifference. Nor is any claim that He is powerless valid. Or shall I say, He is powerless to change what He himself has declared, without becoming a liar about what He first declared. Or shall I say, He can only change the outcome of what He Himself declared by sacrificing Himself.


If they had no knowledge of good or evil how could they know it was wrong to do so?
A great and deep theological question with far reaching implications. I will scratch the surface. The freewill believers would say God told them, and they knew full well not to eat. But the not freewill believers will point out, that the lie of Satan also contained a false image of god which would question the viability of God's trustworthiness through subterfuge. So it wouldn't matter what they were told by God. Moreover, this lie presented to the innocent, is so disguised in subtlety that it is doubtful the innocent could have seen through it. What they were really being coached to believe, was that God was a lowdown self serving tyrant.

Anyway, the woman was deceived, but scripture implies that Adam had not enough confidence in himself and followed the woman.

So did they know it was wrong? The woman probably didn't, but the man probably did. If so it was the first time he had ever felt such a darkness and didn't know what to make of it except that he didn't like it. The perfection of the lie is that even if Adam did not partake, he would ever wonder if it was true or not. Therefore he might have partaken partly because he needed to find out.
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16-07-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 03:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 03:41 PM)childeye Wrote:  It's more like dung tastes bad.

Not a big coffee fan, huh. Kopi Luwak
Dung coffee?
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16-07-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 04:06 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 03:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  If they had no knowledge of good or evil how could they know it was wrong to do so?
A great and deep theological question with far reaching implications. I will scratch the surface.

May favorite part is how you follow this up immediately with a long post that in NO way addresses the point rev was making.

If they had no knowledge of good and evil how do they know that following the commands if god is a good thing to do. To which your response was basically "cause they did". As always some quality stupid. Yum fucking yum.

Oh also Adam didn't exist so...ya...
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