The foundational lie in the psyche
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17-07-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(17-07-2014 10:30 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 04:55 PM)childeye Wrote:  Notice I form the Light and create darkness. He is the Light that creates darkness. Light is not created, it is His form.
Elsewhere in scripture, God is Light and in Him is no darkness.
Quote:It's convenient that you commented on this and completely ignored the part that I even bolded for you where God says God creates evil. Consider
I didn't ignore it. Darkness is evil was my point. Where Love is not evil is there.

(16-07-2014 04:55 PM)childeye Wrote:  Not so. The term evil is synonymous with darkness in that wherever light is not, darkness is there. Darkness cannot exist in the Light, yet Light can exist in the darkness. A foundational truth about deception is that lies are invented to oppose the Truth. It is not the other way around. the Truth was never invented to oppose the lies. The truth came first. The Light therefore came first. In the garden all began in trust not in distrust, etc...
If, by darkness, you mean evil, then why not just say so? So what you are really saying is that evil cannot exist in goodness (light), but goodness can exist in evil. I disagree. Neither can exist in the other, but I don't think it matters to the point anyway.

Quote:If I understand you correctly, you are trying to say God created goodness and then evil somehow automatically existed as it's opposite. But that's nonsense. You can have goodness without having evil. Goodness might lose its relevance, but it's a state of affairs that certainly is possible. Indeed, that's what you imagine heaven to be so you must believe it is possible. Evil is not automatic. It must have been created as part of your god's universe(s) if it was your god that created everything besides himself.
Yes I agree that there can be goodness without evil. Your point that goodness would lose relevance is exactly what I am trying to say. That is what the knowledge of good and evil basically implies. That is why darkness or evil would be created.

(16-07-2014 04:55 PM)childeye Wrote:  You will have to explain to me how it is God's fault that Adam and Eve sinned.

Quote:Already did that here.

Plus, Revenant has been explaining it to you too with the child burned from a stove example. If I as a parent leave my toddler in front of a hot stove, tell the toddler "don't touch" and leave the room, it is my fault if the toddler gets burned - all my fault - most especially if I know the mischievous sibling is lurking nearby who will probably come along and encourage the toddler to touch the stove. Next to God, Adam and Eve were toddlers with no knowledge at all of good and evil. They didn't know they were sinning by eating the apple, they only knew God had said not to. From their perspective, it was instructions from God, not a moral issue. So, to them, eating the apple might not have been smart since God said "don't", but it wasn't a sin. When they ate the apple, your god labeled it a sin. Then and only then it became a sin - but not actually a true sin because that requires knowledge of it and intention to sin. It was just a label for which all of humanity has supposedly been paying tremendously since. All your god's environment, all his rules, all his definitions, all his neglect when he left them alone, all his knowledge, all his doing, and all his fault.
You make good points Impulse. Especially about any moral culpability due to their innocence. I see the same thing. And you have gone further than Revenant by also bringing in the mischievous sibling. Yes I understand why you would say it's all God's fault. I just don't think that's what we're supposed to draw from this scripture. That is not the point or intent of the writer. I see this scripture as a means to explain the purpose of our temporal existence. I see mankind as the means to destroy a vanity that is in heaven in the form of Satan. And in the process create the incorruptible children of God.

(16-07-2014 05:04 PM)childeye Wrote:  I understand your point. What is wrong about your attitude is that you have not seen the outcome after all is said and done.
Quote:Yes I have. Those raped children have had their lives destroyed. You can't miss it, but somehow YOU seem to be missing it. My attitude... Pfft. Dodgy
I'm not missing it. There are greater things, Eternal things happening that no amount of evil can prevent. Romans 8:18-20King James Version (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
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17-07-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(17-07-2014 05:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-07-2014 05:18 PM)childeye Wrote:  No

Well congratulations then, you are a better parent than your supposedly perfect god.
Please read post 411.
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17-07-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
Thank you to whoever gave me three reputation points. I am now only -3. I suspect they felt empathy for me because I keep running out of my fifty allotted posts.
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17-07-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(17-07-2014 06:14 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(17-07-2014 05:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well congratulations then, you are a better parent than your supposedly perfect god.
Please read post 411.

I reject your interpretation. The scenario I described is exactly what is depicted in the story. Now, you can tapdance all you want around the issue but that story in particular shows that once you tack Yahweh onto you hippy Love is good stance it falls apart. There is no way to have both Christianity and your Love is the highest power. We have brought up tons of examples and you have never once managed to square the circle.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-07-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(17-07-2014 06:17 PM)childeye Wrote:  Thank you to whoever gave me three reputation points. I am now only -3. I suspect they felt empathy for me because I keep running out of my fifty allotted posts.

Don't make me regret the rep. Cool

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-07-2014, 06:33 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(16-07-2014 08:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-07-2014 07:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  An "all-knowing, all powerful" parental figure failed and then blamed everyone else for their failure. It really is the sign of an abusive relationship. Over reaction, blaming everyone else, punishments that do not fit the offense. God is an abusive parent. Good thing he is also bad fiction.

Well, sure; but to the bronze age goat herders, to whom the gods were not perfect and indeed far from it... It's perfectly cromulent mythology in the original context, which is wholesale cribbing by a bunch of desert schmucks overawed by the Egyptians, Assyrians, and Babylonians who surrounded them.

Problem being, the fuckwits like our dear OP here, who latch feverishly onto a demented deepity like "God is love", having found it emotionally satisfying on a primally uncritical level, and manage to simultaneously take for wholly literal the hodgepodge of polemic and historiography that particular random phrase got variously packaged with, while steadfastly ignoring or denying the many entirely contrary portions of that scattershot text.

Like "God is jealous". So let's review:
"God is love".
"God is jealous".
Therefore, by the transitive property, "love is jealous".

Hobo x 1000 wouldn't begin to cover it.
Not true cjlr. I don't just trust something because it's in the bible. In truth I only trust what is self-evident. Spiritual Truth can be ascertained from many sources.
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17-07-2014, 06:45 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(17-07-2014 06:33 PM)childeye Wrote:  Not true cjlr. I don't just trust something because it's in the bible. In truth I only trust what is self-evident. Spiritual Truth can be ascertained from many sources.

Ah; so you flat-out admit to cherry picking the Bible to support your own personal presuppositions.

Presuppositions which are based solely on your subjective personal experience, which you can neither articulate nor justify.

If you were honest about that, so much the better.

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17-07-2014, 06:52 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(14-07-2014 12:28 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(14-07-2014 12:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, evolution made children and the innocence of children. Who hates God? I don't hate non-existent things.
Yes children are just biomatter, no reason to not eat one.

Non sequitur.

If you have to believe in a magical sky daddy to have a moral compass, I pity you. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2014, 06:53 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2014 07:01 PM by childeye.)
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(17-07-2014 06:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I reject your interpretation. The scenario I described is exactly what is depicted in the story.
Uhh, that is not exactly true. It's not a hot stove, it is a source of knowledge that corrupts innocence.
Quote: Now, you can tapdance all you want around the issue but that story in particular shows that once you tack Yahweh onto you hippy Love is good stance it falls apart.

Sure it falls apart, because you misinterpret it. When I read scripture, I'm just trying to understand the intent of the writer. I'm not looking for reasons to discount it, like you do. Tapdancing? Well of course you are transparent in your belief that I am trying to defend my belief. I'm not trying to defend my belief even though you are intent on attacking it. I'm trying to show you something, "share" something with you, and trying not to come across as trying to convince you of anything at the same time.

Quote:There is no way to have both Christianity and your Love is the highest power. We have brought up tons of examples and you have never once managed to square the circle.
Your examples are a well rehearsed skepticism of what you clearly don't wish to understand. Frankly, the word GOD on this forum is like black magic.
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17-07-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(17-07-2014 06:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-07-2014 12:28 PM)childeye Wrote:  Yes children are just biomatter, no reason to not eat one.

Non sequitur.

If you have to believe in a magical sky daddy to have a moral compass, I pity you. Drinking Beverage
Yes I have a moral compass that points to a spiritual Truth. The existence of such is already self evident to me. You also must find morality relative to something.
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