The foundational lie in the psyche
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18-07-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 06:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-07-2014 10:09 PM)childeye Wrote:  Like I don't know that. Do you know what Spirit means? Spirit pertains to emotions as in those things we feel that motivate us to do this or that. You therefore contradict your self by claiming there is nothing spiritual about it even as you claim rats have empathy. Science points to survival of the species as the motive. A purely carnal approach. Science does not address the metaphysical. It does not explain why a rat would return good for evil.

No, that's not what 'spiritual' means. You are not allowed to have your own private definitions of words and use those to try to communicate.

And, no, science does not point to "survival of the species as the motive". That is just your misunderstanding of evolution.
Okay Chas. What do you think spirit means? And explain what I am misunderstanding about evolution.
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18-07-2014, 04:06 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 08:14 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-07-2014 10:47 PM)childeye Wrote:  Sin is a direction away from God, hence it is an action as well as a state of being. To not trust God is therefore a sin. I don't believe it was a willful sin. I don't think they saw it as distrusting God. I don't think they ever even felt distrust before. I think this was a dark feeling for Adam as he considered whether the woman was telling the truth.

Ask a Christian if Adam was sorry for what he did. And remember we're projecting here. They most likely will say yes, because he got kicked out of the garden. How many will answer yes, because he ended up counting God a self serving liar rather than trusting that God was faithful and always looking out for Adams best interests? How many will say Adam is sorry for hurting God? The subtlety of the lie is still alive in the psyche. God does not want to hear we're sorry we got kicked out of the garden. It is a false sorrow.

I have to go to bed now. I thank you for your time and rep points and I'm looking forward to your comments on my above thoughts about Adam and the foundational lie.

Again you are pushing God as victim, that is impossible for an Omnimax being. Nothing can happen that he is unaware of and cannot change or he is not Omnipotent/Omniscient. Therefore he knew before he even began that this would happen and yet you claim he is the victim. No my friend God is the one at fault, much like the negligent father with the toddler he placed 2 innocents, who had no concept of what would happen if they did this thing, into a position of great peril and then blamed them when his own carelessness and inattention allowed them to be harmed.

Of course the story of Adam and Eve disproves the concept of an all powerful all knowing God. He displays not only lack of knowledge (not knowing where they were when they hid or what they had done) but shows him to not have the power to fix it. Now we know this story was just one of many stolen from the babylonians and was written from the perspective of an Oden or Zeus all father non-omnimax god which makes it more understandable why he was unaware how stupid he was being. His reaction is still monstrous and that of an abusive person but the bits that show him to not be Omni are explained. In fact Yahweh himself was just one of a pantheon at this time the 72nd son of El in the palestinian pantheon to be exact. Yahweh, lord of hosts god of the army.

What the intended message of this story is without presuppositional bs is quite simply do not think listen to what god (or more accurately the priest speaking for god) says and do what they say without thought, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. It is simply a control story used by the levites to exert control in what was a theocracy. Have you ever wondered why, if Yahweh was always poking in on Israel and Judah, did the jews keep going to other gods? The answer is simple, the levites were great at maintaining power but sucked at running a civilisation. One of the reasons they flipped from a Polytheist society to a Monotheist one was they thought that elevating their war god would bring them marshall success yet they were conquered by every major power to ever sniff at that region. So the people seeing their war god fail time and time again would wander away to other idols leaving the golden calf (the symbol of Yahweh in the northern kingdom) for greener pastures.
I'm disappointed. But I don't blame you. I'm sure you did your best.
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18-07-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 06:38 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Can anyone please point me towards any post in this thread that has any bearing whatsoever on the thread title?

Thanks.

Dodgy
Why? Nobody cares.
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18-07-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 04:07 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(18-07-2014 06:38 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Can anyone please point me towards any post in this thread that has any bearing whatsoever on the thread title?

Thanks.

Dodgy
Why? Nobody cares.

So it seems.

But I did wade through the entire thread looking for this psychic lie you mentioned... so I guess I must have been at least mildly intrigued Blush

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18-07-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 10:18 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(17-07-2014 06:10 PM)childeye Wrote:  Yes I agree that there can be goodness without evil. Your point that goodness would lose relevance is exactly what I am trying to say. That is what the knowledge of good and evil basically implies. That is why darkness or evil would be created.

Quote:It's irrelevant that goodness would lose relevance though. Recall that we were originally talking about whether God created evil. You were saying evil came into being simply by goodness being created by God. Since you agree that goodness can exist without evil, then you should understand that evil was not in fact created automatically simply by God creating goodness. Evil exists because it was created by God. This is not what I personally believe, but it is what's consistent with the things you believe.
I first want to sincerely thank you for your forthright responses. They are thoughtful and considerate.

I would correct something about what you think I believe. It is apparent that I have not explained myself thoroughly. I am saying that God/Love/goodness/Godliness/Light/Truth is Eternal. Goodness was never created, it has always been and shall always be.

(17-07-2014 06:10 PM)childeye Wrote:  You make good points Impulse. Especially about any moral culpability due to their innocence. I see the same thing. And you have gone further than Revenant by also bringing in the mischievous sibling. Yes I understand why you would say it's all God's fault. I just don't think that's what we're supposed to draw from this scripture. That is not the point or intent of the writer. I see this scripture as a means to explain the purpose of our temporal existence. I see mankind as the means to destroy a vanity that is in heaven in the form of Satan. And in the process create the incorruptible children of God.
Quote:To sum that up: "Yeah that makes sense. But anyway what I was saying was..." Facepalm

I care none about anything I'm "supposed to draw from scripture". I only care about what is really there, what it really means, it's real implications, and most especially whether it's true at all - any of it. If you can believe anything in the Bible, that god is heinous. So, if that god wants me to see it a certain way, too bad. It is what it is, not what that god wants me to think it is.
This is rather confusing. You say above that you only care what is really there, it's real implications and especially if it's true. That sounds like you want to understand it and ascertain its validity, if any. I do too. But you also say you don't care about what you're supposed to draw from scripture. That's like saying you don't care what the writer's trying to get across. That doesn't make sense to me. I have always found scripture trying to explain Eternal things from a temporal perspective. It isn't always easy to comprehend why evil must happen. This world and all that happens in it, is probably only a moment.

(17-07-2014 06:10 PM)childeye Wrote:  I'm not missing it. There are greater things, Eternal things happening that no amount of evil can prevent. Romans 8:18-20King James Version (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Quote:So in other words, you don't care what evil things your god does or allows. Dodgy

A tricky question. If I'm supposed to learn the value of good things through experiencing bad things, then I need to care. I want to learn the lesson as well as possible. For that is the perfection of my praise.
But I don't care that God allows bad things so as to hold it against Him. I figure He knows what He's doing. I agree with Job. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. I do not presume to judge Him based on my limited understanding.

Moreover, I note that the Christ is not a heinous image of God, nor a heinous son of man. He suffers too just like us. When I ask the Holy Spirit why the Old Testament God is so harsh, I get the impression that Satan was in control of the back and forth between heaven and earth during that time. The Spirit tells me to notice that the Christ, the True image of God sent by God, was crucified by those who were in charge of the temple and by the secular authorities. I take that to mean God was not in charge of the Old Testament. I think the Old Testament law was a trap for Satan, and his self righteous merciless false piety was displayed for all of heaven to see, when he crucified the True Image of God. Hence Jesus says, now is the time the prince of this world is cast out.

Quote:By the way, have you ever thought about the word "glory"? Why is glory so important to your god? An omnipotent god wouldn't care. The need or desire for glory is related to feelings, pride, and self-image - things that are only important to imperfect beings.
I have thought many times about Glory. There is much I could say on the subject, but I will be brief. I Love to behold God's glory. It is an ecstasy. Men see it and fall prostrate, and all else becomes meaningless in comparison, even life and death. The worst place imaginable to me is where my praise would never be heard.

Glory is not important to God like you might think. It is important for our sake. Without God being glorified, vanity will persist and all will die. That is why scripture says so that no flesh may glory. His glory must be realized so that vanity is destroyed. The revealing of God's glory and the end of all vanity are the same thing.
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18-07-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 04:06 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(18-07-2014 08:14 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Again you are pushing God as victim, that is impossible for an Omnimax being. Nothing can happen that he is unaware of and cannot change or he is not Omnipotent/Omniscient. Therefore he knew before he even began that this would happen and yet you claim he is the victim. No my friend God is the one at fault, much like the negligent father with the toddler he placed 2 innocents, who had no concept of what would happen if they did this thing, into a position of great peril and then blamed them when his own carelessness and inattention allowed them to be harmed.

Of course the story of Adam and Eve disproves the concept of an all powerful all knowing God. He displays not only lack of knowledge (not knowing where they were when they hid or what they had done) but shows him to not have the power to fix it. Now we know this story was just one of many stolen from the babylonians and was written from the perspective of an Oden or Zeus all father non-omnimax god which makes it more understandable why he was unaware how stupid he was being. His reaction is still monstrous and that of an abusive person but the bits that show him to not be Omni are explained. In fact Yahweh himself was just one of a pantheon at this time the 72nd son of El in the palestinian pantheon to be exact. Yahweh, lord of hosts god of the army.

What the intended message of this story is without presuppositional bs is quite simply do not think listen to what god (or more accurately the priest speaking for god) says and do what they say without thought, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. It is simply a control story used by the levites to exert control in what was a theocracy. Have you ever wondered why, if Yahweh was always poking in on Israel and Judah, did the jews keep going to other gods? The answer is simple, the levites were great at maintaining power but sucked at running a civilisation. One of the reasons they flipped from a Polytheist society to a Monotheist one was they thought that elevating their war god would bring them marshall success yet they were conquered by every major power to ever sniff at that region. So the people seeing their war god fail time and time again would wander away to other idols leaving the golden calf (the symbol of Yahweh in the northern kingdom) for greener pastures.
I'm disappointed. But I don't blame you. I'm sure you did your best.

Over your head?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-07-2014, 05:34 PM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2014 05:37 PM by childeye.)
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 04:17 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-07-2014 04:07 PM)childeye Wrote:  Why? Nobody cares.

So it seems.

But I did wade through the entire thread looking for this psychic lie you mentioned... so I guess I must have been at least mildly intrigued Blush
I believe there is a lie upon which all other lies are built. A false premise that dwells in the subconscious. And it is the foundation of deception which harbors every spirit that is darkness in the souls of mankind. I have brought the subject to this forum in hopes, the able minds of skeptical thought can uncover it. Despite the simple format that I have presented, I have yet to see any worthy dialogue, or even any comprehension of it's existence and the subsequent implications, all because every mind here appears to be disabled by Godphobia.
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18-07-2014, 05:39 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 05:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-07-2014 04:06 PM)childeye Wrote:  I'm disappointed. But I don't blame you. I'm sure you did your best.

Over your head?
I'll say this. It's like watching Mozart have to listen to a lesson on the intricacies of the kazoo.
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18-07-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 04:17 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-07-2014 04:07 PM)childeye Wrote:  Why? Nobody cares.

So it seems.

But I did wade through the entire thread looking for this psychic lie you mentioned... so I guess I must have been at least mildly intrigued Blush

Lol! You must have forgotten where you were Smile

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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18-07-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(18-07-2014 05:39 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(18-07-2014 05:33 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Over your head?
I'll say this. It's like watching Mozart have to listen to a lesson on the intricacies of the kazoo.

I see, so you would rather play stupid word games and feign ignorance than discuss biblical history? I have given you more chances than anyone on this board to fully explain yourself and yet you have each and every time either resorted to mangling the english language to force your theology with redefinitions or just flat out refused to answer questions. I think I am done discussing this topic with you. I do find you an agreeable sort outside of our theological differences so if you wish to engage elsewhere on the forum do not hesitate. Scroll through the other sections and you will find that despite not fawning over an imaginary celestial dictator we lead full and for the most part happy lives. But as I do not wish to become hostile I am going to leave this thread. I doubt I shall be back here.

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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