The foundational lie in the psyche
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12-07-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 02:59 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Empathy does not exist on its own, it is an emotion. Animals have emotions - they are biochemical processes.
Pooping and peeing is a biochemical process also, but people don't sacrifice their lives for the cause of pooping and peeing.

And your point is what ?
People sacrifice their lives for all sorts of crazy shit.
That doesn't make something true.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-07-2014, 03:03 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 02:42 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:22 PM)childeye Wrote:  Empathy exists both inside and outside my consciousness.

Excellent! If empathy exists outside of consciousness then it must have some form of energy. That means that if we can somehow harness it then we can convert it to electricity and use it to power our homes and industry.
It powers our social wellbeing and ensures our security. We all need to be loved and to love others.
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12-07-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 03:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:59 PM)childeye Wrote:  Pooping and peeing is a biochemical process also, but people don't sacrifice their lives for the cause of pooping and peeing.

And your point is what ?
People sacrifice their lives for all sorts of crazy shit.
That doesn't make something true.
My point is that Love is the highest value.
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12-07-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 02:59 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Empathy does not exist on its own, it is an emotion. Animals have emotions - they are biochemical processes.
Pooping and peeing is a biochemical process also, but people don't sacrifice their lives for the cause of pooping and peeing.

Actually they do (ignoring for the moment that the fact that people sacrifice their lives for something doesn't have any impact on whether something is a god or not)

"Pooping and peeing" is an essential part of life and people sacrifice their lives to allow others to live. The best definition we have for life, the only consistent requirement for any form of life is that it has a metabolism. So you should include "eating and drinking" alongside "Pooping and peeing".

The metabolic process takes in high grade energy in the form of food or sunlight, uses it to perform work and expels low grade energy in the form of waste products.
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12-07-2014, 03:10 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 02:45 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 12:36 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I have lots of empathy. I'm brimming with it. And I don't need to believe in imaginary beings to have empathy.

I totally agree.
Quote:Now I didn't ask you whether what you were talking about was imaginary, I already know it is.

But just above you said you have lots of empathy, so are you saying you are just imagining you do? Because empathy is what is being talked about in the post.

Some people believe they freely choose to be empathetic and others believe that empathy is not the product of human reasoning. Those are the two sides of the argument.

Quote: I asked you by what method can I reliably distinguish what you call God from something you may be merely imagining.

Answer the question. If you do you will be the first to do so in my experience.
I think you ask the question wrong. At face value I would say the answer is logic or common sense. Since you are using what I call God which is "empathy" as that which is to be distinguished from something merely imaginary. It would be like asking you what method can I reliably use to distinguish what you call empathy from something you may be merely imagining?

You wrote: Some people believe they freely choose to be empathetic and others believe that empathy is not the product of human reasoning. Those are the two sides of the argument.

Actually it is not either of those choices. Emotions are automatized responses to stimuli based on a persons values. I don't have a choice about feeling emotions but I do have a choice about the values and premises those emotions are based on.

You wrote: I think you ask the question wrong. At face value I would say the answer is logic or common sense. Since you are using what I call God which is "empathy" as that which is to be distinguished from something merely imaginary. It would be like asking you what method can I reliably use to distinguish what you call empathy from something you may be merely imagining?


I thought you were talking about the Christian concept of God but since you have clearly stated that what you call "God" is a Human emotion then you are right, the question doesn't apply. So just to verify. You are saying that "God" is a biological process of certain organisms not limited to Humans, since as Bucky Ball pointed out other animals feel empathy, and not an all powerful consciousness that created everything by an act of conscious will, correct?

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12-07-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:08 PM)childeye Wrote:  Empathy is not imagined. Empathy is real. Therefore what I call God, is not imagined.

The key phrase here is "what I call God". Calling something God doesn't make it God, except in your mind.
If it rules morally as the highest power and holds the highest perceivable value in our experience as human beings on this planet, then it is as close to God as we're going to get in the truest sense of the term.
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12-07-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 03:11 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  The key phrase here is "what I call God". Calling something God doesn't make it God, except in your mind.
If it rules morally as the highest power and holds the highest perceivable value in our experience as human beings on this planet, then it is as close to God as we're going to get in the truest sense of the term.

But you still haven't demonstrated or even suggested a means by which an emotion, or empathy, can exist outside of a brain.

At the moment all you are arguing is that God exists only as a pattern of neural activity within our brains.
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12-07-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 03:10 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Actually it is not either of those choices. Emotions are automatized responses to stimuli based on a persons values. I don't have a choice about feeling emotions but I do have a choice about the values and premises those emotions are based on.

Would you please distinguish between the words decision/choice and option/choice when using the term choice? Otherwise there is chance of misunderstanding and I can't reply accurately.

I'm going to take you to mean when you say you have a choice, you mean options available when referring to the premises and values. Where do they come from? Are these values biochemical in composition?

Quote: So just to verify. You are saying that "God" is a biological process of certain organisms not limited to Humans, since as Bucky Ball pointed out other animals feel empathy, and not an all powerful consciousness that created everything by an act of conscious will, correct?
I would say that we experience God through a biological existence. I decline to answer the rest as I would rather explore God from a practical provable logic rather than superstition.
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12-07-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 03:11 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  The key phrase here is "what I call God". Calling something God doesn't make it God, except in your mind.
If it rules morally as the highest power and holds the highest perceivable value in our experience as human beings on this planet, then it is as close to God as we're going to get in the truest sense of the term.

Not 'truest sense'. Maybe 'most poetic sense'.

But no, if you have to stretch that far, you are doing it wrong. You are confusing one kind of thing for another.

Emotions are biochemical processes in our brains that are effected by, and in turn affect (feedback), our autonomic nervous systems.
No gods are necessary for our understanding of this.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 03:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not 'truest sense'. Maybe 'most poetic sense'.
Fair enough.
Quote:But no, if you have to stretch that far, you are doing it wrong. You are confusing one kind of thing for another.
Confusing what for what? God for empathy? A poetic ideal fro a chemical process?

Quote:Emotions are biochemical processes in our brains that are effected by, and in turn affect (feedback), our autonomic nervous systems.
No gods are necessary for our understanding of this.
I don't disagree. But our emotions are determined by what we believe to be true. That is one of the points of my post, that two different spirits are manifested in the two different beliefs that bring about two different judgments concerning moral behavior.
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