The foundational lie in the psyche
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12-07-2014, 03:51 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 03:20 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 03:11 PM)childeye Wrote:  If it rules morally as the highest power and holds the highest perceivable value in our experience as human beings on this planet, then it is as close to God as we're going to get in the truest sense of the term.

But you still haven't demonstrated or even suggested a means by which an emotion, or empathy, can exist outside of a brain.

At the moment all you are arguing is that God exists only as a pattern of neural activity within our brains.
I can't think of anything that is not happening in my brain as a matter of perception. I don't mean to come across as dodging the issue you put forth. The terms for eternal things don't actually exist in our language. Instead I seek to explore the idea of what the term God is applied to in the most knowable sense. I use the term to describe that knowledge that would be applied to that which we would deem eternal.
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12-07-2014, 04:01 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 04:46 PM by childeye.)
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 03:08 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:59 PM)childeye Wrote:  Pooping and peeing is a biochemical process also, but people don't sacrifice their lives for the cause of pooping and peeing.

Actually they do (ignoring for the moment that the fact that people sacrifice their lives for something doesn't have any impact on whether something is a god or not)

"Pooping and peeing" is an essential part of life and people sacrifice their lives to allow others to live. The best definition we have for life, the only consistent requirement for any form of life is that it has a metabolism. So you should include "eating and drinking" alongside "Pooping and peeing".

The metabolic process takes in high grade energy in the form of food or sunlight, uses it to perform work and expels low grade energy in the form of waste products.
Mathilda, I appreciate what you're saying, but when I say Life, it is not meant to be applied to the scientific term known as biology. I mean more the philosophical aspects of life. In that sense, I think life is more than eating and procreating. I believe all of our most meaningful experiences, such as laughter, friendships, loved ones, hardships, joy, sorrow, are not for naught.
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12-07-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 02:51 PM)morondog Wrote:  Bud, changing the meaning of words ain't gonna make reality change to suit you.

God as in Christian God is not normally conflated with empathy. "God" is ambiguous, "empathy" is not. Why are you trying to use "God" in place of "empathy"?
Because, division happens over the term God. If I use empathy, however all people admit it is the highest value for all men. This post I wrote is meant to show how empathy can be perverted when one believes they choose to deny it or embrace it, rather than see it as the only thing that makes us good.
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12-07-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 04:08 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:51 PM)morondog Wrote:  Bud, changing the meaning of words ain't gonna make reality change to suit you.

God as in Christian God is not normally conflated with empathy. "God" is ambiguous, "empathy" is not. Why are you trying to use "God" in place of "empathy"?
Because, division happens over the term God. If I use empathy, however all people admit it is the highest value for all men. This post I wrote is meant to show how empathy can be perverted when one believes they choose to deny it or embrace it, rather than see it as the only thing that makes us good.

Yes, but the facetious equivocation comes in when you don't mean merely "empathy".

You literally do mean the Christian god, or else you wouldn't be blathering on quoting Biblical passages and referring to Christ. You're just grasping at shitty logic to justify it.

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12-07-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 02:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:11 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  So if God is empathy he does not exist outside of your consciousness.

Maybe you're not familiar with childeye logic™.

It goes like this:
1. God is love/empathy.
2. Love/empathy exists.
3. Therefore God exists.
4. Therefore Bible.
5. ??
6. Profit!

Attempting to explain why any and all of these steps are unwarranted is as productive as smashing your face repeatedly into a brick wall, and only a tiny bit more entertaining.
1. Empathy exists
2. Without empathy men are selfish
3. selfishness is immoral and destructive
4. Empathy is God
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12-07-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
I said: Actually it is not either of those choices. Emotions are automatized responses to stimuli based on a persons values. I don't have a choice about feeling emotions but I do have a choice about the values and premises those emotions are based on.

You asked in reply: Would you please distinguish between the words decision/choice and option/choice when using the term choice? Otherwise there is chance of misunderstanding and I can't reply accurately.

I'm going to take you to mean when you say you have a choice, you mean options available when referring to the premises and values. Where do they come from? Are these values biochemical in composition?


I'll be glad to clarify. By choice I mean and act of volition. Emotions are not volitional, they are automatic just as the process by which my brain turns sense data into percepts is automatic. values are conceptual and they come from the conceptual faculty which is very much a volitional faculty. Values have to be discovered. We don't automatically know what is good for us. Therefore we do have a choice about what we value. I arrived at my values by reason and though they are not biochemical in composition the process that led to them is.

I had asked: So just to verify. You are saying that "God" is a biological process of certain organisms not limited to Humans, since as Bucky Ball pointed out other animals feel empathy, and not an all powerful consciousness that created everything by an act of conscious will, correct?


You wrote in response: I would say that we experience God through a biological existence. I decline to answer the rest as I would rather explore God from a practical provable logic rather than superstition.

I didn't ask you how you experience God. Of course you experience everything as a biological organism. Since you *decline to answer* I have no idea what you mean when you say "God". I don't understand how you could refuse to answer this question given the subject of your post. So thrice I ask and done, how can I reliably distinguish what you call "God" from something you may merely be imagining? If you refuse to answer I'm going to just categorize you as another flaky mystic and move on.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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12-07-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 04:15 PM)childeye Wrote:  1. Empathy exists
2. Without empathy men are selfish
3. selfishness is immoral and destructive
4. Empathy is God

Which is meaningless.

So what?

Empathy is a human impulse. It answers nothing. It explains nothing. It requires nothing. We both know that your only goal here is massive equivocation on the term "God".

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12-07-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 04:15 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 02:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Maybe you're not familiar with childeye logic™.

It goes like this:
1. God is love/empathy.
2. Love/empathy exists.
3. Therefore God exists.
4. Therefore Bible.
5. ??
6. Profit!

Attempting to explain why any and all of these steps are unwarranted is as productive as smashing your face repeatedly into a brick wall, and only a tiny bit more entertaining.
1. Empathy exists
2. Without empathy men are selfish
3. selfishness is immoral and destructive
4. Empathy is God
Complete and utter non-sequitur.

What makes you assume that God is only the positive traits?


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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12-07-2014, 04:34 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 04:13 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 04:08 PM)childeye Wrote:  Because, division happens over the term God. If I use empathy, however all people admit it is the highest value for all men. This post I wrote is meant to show how empathy can be perverted when one believes they choose to deny it or embrace it, rather than see it as the only thing that makes us good.

Yes, but the facetious equivocation comes in when you don't mean merely "empathy".

You literally do mean the Christian god, or else you wouldn't be blathering on quoting Biblical passages and referring to Christ. You're just grasping at shitty logic to justify it.
I can't help it that the scriptures claims God is empathy. I didn't write it. Be reasonable. It is not a facetious equivocation. I am being as transparent as I know how to be. I have not hidden that I am Christian nor should I have to. I never conceived that atheism was a form of prejudice. You don't believe in God, because you don't believe He exists in any form or manner other than imaginary. Why is that not an equivocation?
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12-07-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 04:34 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 04:13 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, but the facetious equivocation comes in when you don't mean merely "empathy".

You literally do mean the Christian god, or else you wouldn't be blathering on quoting Biblical passages and referring to Christ. You're just grasping at shitty logic to justify it.
I can't help it that the scriptures claims God is empathy.

And also jealous, vengeful, temperamental, etc...

WHOOPS.

(12-07-2014 04:34 PM)childeye Wrote:  I didn't write it. Be reasonable.

But you accept it uncritically, which is even worse.

(12-07-2014 04:34 PM)childeye Wrote:  It is not a facetious equivocation. I am being as transparent as I know how to be. I have not hidden that I am Christian nor should I have to. I never conceived that atheism was a form of prejudice. You don't believe in God, because you don't believe He exists in any form or manner other than imaginary. Why is that not an equivocation?

I don't accept unsubstantiated and incoherent claims as valid. That has absolutely nothing to do with equivocation. That you'd even ask only re-affirms that you don't know what words mean.

When you say "God" you do not mean empathy. You mean the Christian God, a personal, interventionist entity, who had to create an avatar of part of himself in order to sacrifice himself to himself to change his own rules. What part of that is empathy, exactly?

When you say "God is empathy, empathy exists, therefore God exists" the unspoken but utterly implicit corollary is "and God is also lots of other things", which is incredibly blatant equivocation.

And in the end it's just more of the same transparently nonsensical presuppositionalist horseshit dozens of other fools and madmen have espoused.

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