The foundational lie in the psyche
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12-07-2014, 05:58 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 05:56 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 05:53 PM)Dom Wrote:  Explain worship then.
True worship is drawn out by the object of worship.

Big Grin Come visit and I'll draw it out of you Big Grin

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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12-07-2014, 06:00 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 05:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  So it means Love is the highest value.

Define "value". Define "highest". Define "love".

(12-07-2014 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  It answers how to treat our fellow man, our family and friends. How to esteem others through how we wish to be esteemed.

It does no such thing. Empathising with someone who disagrees with me does not make me agree with them. Reciprocity is an entirely distinct concept. Neither is sufficient to understand group interaction alone. Are you even trying?

(12-07-2014 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  see above.

Good to know you haven't changed.

If questioned, crap out vacuous non-answers. If questioned further, re-assert the same meaningless non-answers. Ad infinitem. Profit.

(12-07-2014 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  It requires self sacrifice.

Experiencing empathy requires nothing, as it is a naturally occurring facet of human emotion. Are you even trying?

(12-07-2014 05:44 PM)childeye Wrote:  I realize that is what you think. I appreciate the candor. Actually, I hoped you could put away your aversion to the term God so as to discuss the op.

The OP is incoherent drivel.
Going to eat dinner watch a movie. I'll be back and edit in my response.
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12-07-2014, 06:25 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 05:20 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 04:16 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
Quote:I'll be glad to clarify. By choice I mean and act of volition. Emotions are not volitional, they are automatic just as the process by which my brain turns sense data into percepts is automatic. values are conceptual and they come from the conceptual faculty which is very much a volitional faculty. Values have to be discovered. We don't automatically know what is good for us. Therefore we do have a choice about what we value. I arrived at my values by reason and though they are not biochemical in composition the process that led to them is.
You're the only person actually talking about the op in any meaningful way. I appreciate that. Actually Chas did have something to offer but he has not responded any further.

You first say values have to be discovered. I agree with that. They exist as something to learn through experience. I don't agree they are conceptual. I never conceived to hate being ridiculed or punched in the nose. Nor did I conceive that I like being liked. Moreover everyone shares the same common values. We all learn the same truths about life. Hence values exist apart from the wills of humans and they are not biochemical in composition.

I had asked: So just to verify. You are saying that "God" is a biological process of certain organisms not limited to Humans, since as Bucky Ball pointed out other animals feel empathy, and not an all powerful consciousness that created everything by an act of conscious will, correct?


You wrote in response: I would say that we experience God through a biological existence. I decline to answer the rest as I would rather explore God from a practical provable logic rather than superstition.
[quote]
I didn't ask you how you experience God.
I was just fixing your paraphrasing of what I am saying.

Quote: Since you *decline to answer* I have no idea what you mean when you say "God".
Oh yes you do. I mean empathy, the highest value.
Quote: I don't understand how you could refuse to answer this question given the subject of your post. So thrice I ask and done, how can I reliably distinguish what you call "God" from something you may merely be imagining? If you refuse to answer I'm going to just categorize you as another flaky mystic and move on.
The subject of the post is whether empathy is a choice/decision or whether it is a power that humans must value as the highest value to be good in the moral sense.

I've answered your question as best as I can in my best understanding of what it is you want to know. Basically I feel you're asking me what method you should use to reliably know I haven't imagined what I call God? You have already acknowledged that empathy is not imaginary. What method did you use? The question must be worded wrong. Try rephrasing the question.

I do acknowledge that empathy is real, I just don't see any reason to call it "God".

You seemed to be implying that empathy or "God" as you call it is something more than a Human emotion. If all you're talking about is an emotion then I don't see why we need to call that "God".

I do think that there is a rational basis for choosing moral values so even if someone was born with a defective brain and was unable to feel empathy for others he could still be a moral person although it would take and extraordinary effort.

I'm tempted to say that life is the highest value but a life without love would be miserable in my opinion. But I still don't see what any of this has to do with God. I certainly deny that there is a god and yet I have tons of empathy. I can hardly stand to kill a spider.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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12-07-2014, 06:26 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 06:00 PM)childeye Wrote:  Going to eat dinner watch a movie. I'll be back and edit in my response.

Please don't. I don't think anyone here can go for "the god term" part 2.

Or if you prefer we can just bump that thread. You're a one-trick pony...You just keep repeating yourself.

Shoo fly!


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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12-07-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
Childeye's leaps of logic makes my heart skip a beat. Heart

“You see… sometimes life gives you lemons. And when that happens… you need to find some spell that makes lemons explode, because lemons are terrible. I only ate them once and I can say with certainty they are the worst fruit. If life gave me lemons, I would view it as nothing short of a declaration of war."
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12-07-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 07:05 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  Childeye's leaps of logic makes my heart skip a beat. Heart

Yeah, they're called PVC's. With all the stuff he thinks lives in the heart it's amazing it can pump any blood. A long run of PVC's can turn into V-Tach, whcih can be lethal. Is Childish trying to kill us ? Consider

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-07-2014, 07:24 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 09:28 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 05:56 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 05:53 PM)Dom Wrote:  Explain worship then.
True worship is drawn out by the object of worship.

I just call that introspection. ... Silly goose. ... Tongue

#sigh
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13-07-2014, 02:10 AM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 05:47 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 05:40 PM)CiderThinker Wrote:  And you need God for that golden rule to occur to you?
Yes and so do you.

Please explain the physical mechanisms involved.
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13-07-2014, 02:13 AM
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 05:52 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 05:31 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Define 'ring true'.
Do you agree with it?

I personally believe that it is is a good rule of thumb to live by but I also recognise that not everyone else does. If I make a moral judgement about it then it's only because I am a human being that has evolved empathy and a pack-instinct specific to my species and the culture that I was brought up in.

That's all that can be said. At no point is God required.
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13-07-2014, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2014 12:50 PM by childeye.)
RE: The foundational lie in the psyche
(12-07-2014 06:25 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I do acknowledge that empathy is real, I just don't see any reason to call it "God".

You seemed to be implying that empathy or "God" as you call it is something more than a Human emotion. If all you're talking about is an emotion then I don't see why we need to call that "God".
Thank you true Scotsman, this is easy for me to understand and respond to. Yes, I am meaning to imply that empathy is more than just an emotion. I use the term empathy to describe an aspect of Love that is both objective and subjective at once in a moral sense. But more than that, I believe that there are many emotions that are dependent upon Love including happiness and anger. Without Love many emotions would not exist in either the presence or absence or perversion of it. As the highest value, it is the measure of many things, perhaps all things. There are in fact times we wish we couldn't feel at all.

But yet it is not that I am without empathy for you. I understand that this does not explain enough how God or Love is a person for you or for those on this forum. To answer that, I can only speak of instances in my life when I was in need of believing that Love was worth serving, and how in those times I prayed and He spoke to me and comforted me. He was there when no one else was. I cannot prove to you it was Him and not my imagination. Consequently I defend the existence of God as if I were defending the very foundation of the purpose for living with every fiber of my being. Atheism is a cold belief system counting Love as a bodily function, and the forming of life no different than the forming of molecules into stone.

Quote:I do think that there is a rational basis for choosing moral values so even if someone was born with a defective brain and was unable to feel empathy for others he could still be a moral person although it would take and extraordinary effort.

I believe morality is rational also, so long as Love defines the good. And because I do, I therefore also believe that immorality is irrational because Love defines the good. As a Christian, we have a term called sin which means a direction away from and in separation from God, that which is the good. To say that sin does not exist because there is no God, means the person who says it, is ignorant of what the term God means. This op not only recognizes that morality is rational, but also supplies that rational reasoning that would Love even your enemies.

Quote:I'm tempted to say that life is the highest value but a life without love would be miserable in my opinion. But I still don't see what any of this has to do with God. I certainly deny that there is a god and yet I have tons of empathy. I can hardly stand to kill a spider.
I believe you have great empathy. It is said that Jesus came to save the lost not the righteous. Consequently. I believe it is those whose hope in empathy has been shattered, that God reveals Himself to.
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