The go a little easy on theists thread
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-02-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 10:02 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 09:59 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  RobbyPants, I'm not arguing that I can prove it, I'm just arguing that there is evidence (or more importantly, countering Chas' point that there is no evidence). The difference is between "evidence" and "conclusive evidence". I claim to have the first, but not the second.

As long as we're in agreement that the evidence requires you to assume God exists in the first place.

Lol, no I definitely don't think we ever got to that point of agreement.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 09:59 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  RobbyPants, I'm not arguing that I can prove it, I'm just arguing that there is evidence (or more importantly, countering Chas' point that there is no evidence). The difference is between "evidence" and "conclusive evidence". I claim to have the first, but not the second.

(10-02-2014 09:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  None of what you term 'evidence' is, in fact, evidence. Not revelation, not feelings, not assumptions, not any of it.

That is not by interpretation, that is by the very definition of evidence.

Well, let's take a look at the dictionary definition of evidence, shall we?

ev·i·dence [ev-i-duhns] Show IPA
noun
1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.
3. Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.

By golly, objects and witness testimony actually does count as evidence?! Who knew? All these years of watching crime procedurals...

When we speak of "evidence", moron, we generally mean convincing evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary eviddnce.

...fucking cheezsammiches aren't evidence.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 09:59 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Thank you for responding/re-posting.

*Bows

So...the deity made everything...and then everything unfolded (And is continuing to unfold, I am presuming) as they have seen fit/foretold.

So...we're all just wind up toys then? The things which are suitable for 'Us', and everything around, are all part of the big wind up thing which has yet to finish playing out to its forgone conclusion?

Again, if the deity is off faffing about 'some where else' while the clock-work toy (Reality) is ticking over on the bench (Where he left it, until it's finished its course)...Why should we, the wind up toys, care? (Other than perhaps it's been programmed into us..?)

Or, as Mister Hitchen's said "We all have free will. Because God said we must."

Very much cheers to all.

That's a good question. Do we truly have free will? Honestly, I haven't done enough reading/thinking in that area to have a conclusive answer for you. It certainly is possible that the creator set initial conditions that would result in the development of free thinking individuals. I think that perhaps my view is that once humans developed the capability of free will the creator was no longer able to predict the outcome with precise certainty. Certainly, he'd still have the ability to predict within a scope of reasonableness (ie. I can predict that the Broncos will beat the Jaguars the vast majority of the time), but the higher our level of intelligence develops, the more the margin for error increases. Think about any movie involving Artificial Intelligence. Eventually, the intelligence develops to a point where you can't predict the outcome.

There is also the possibility that the creator is outside of time, like I mentioned before. In that case, just because he can see our decisions at the same time as he is creating those initial conditions, does that mean we didn't decide them? Think about it like God being able to see the future the way we see the past. I know who won gold yesterday because I was watching the Olympics, but I had no influence over who won. That having been said, I'm just spit-balling, I don't really have a conclusive answer for you on that.

On the other part, I didn't say that the creator was faffing off somewhere else. Just because he chooses not to intervene on a day to day basis, doesn't mean that he doesn't watch his creation (or else why bother creating it?). Don't forget, a being with that level of intelligence would certainly be able to split his focus. He could certainly be watching his favorite TV show (the humans on earth show) while also knitting and chewing gum, etc.

Also, remember, just because he doesn't intervene during our lives, doesn't mean that he doesn't approve or disapprove with those actions, and it doesn't mean that he doesn't decide where we go upon death...if that's not a good reason to care, I don't know what is.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 10:29 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  That's a good question. Do we truly have free will? Honestly, I haven't done enough reading/thinking in that area to have a conclusive answer for you. It certainly is possible that the creator set initial conditions that would result in the development of free thinking individuals. I think that perhaps my view is that once humans developed the capability of free will the creator was no longer able to predict the outcome with precise certainty. Certainly, he'd still have the ability to predict within a scope of reasonableness (ie. I can predict that the Broncos will beat the Jaguars the vast majority of the time), but the higher our level of intelligence develops, the more the margin for error increases. Think about any movie involving Artificial Intelligence. Eventually, the intelligence develops to a point where you can't predict the outcome.

There is also the possibility that the creator is outside of time, like I mentioned before. In that case, just because he can see our decisions at the same time as he is creating those initial conditions, does that mean we didn't decide them? Think about it like God being able to see the future the way we see the past. I know who won gold yesterday because I was watching the Olympics, but I had no influence over who won. That having been said, I'm just spit-balling, I don't really have a conclusive answer for you on that.

On the other part, I didn't say that the creator was faffing off somewhere else. Just because he chooses not to intervene on a day to day basis, doesn't mean that he doesn't watch his creation (or else why bother creating it?). Don't forget, a being with that level of intelligence would certainly be able to split his focus. He could certainly be watching his favorite TV show (the humans on earth show) while also knitting and chewing gum, etc.

Also, remember, just because he doesn't intervene during our lives, doesn't mean that he doesn't approve or disapprove with those actions, and it doesn't mean that he doesn't decide where we go upon death...if that's not a good reason to care, I don't know what is.

So...the deity doesn't stick their finger into the clock-work and hence very well could be off doing something more important than 'Us'?

If the deity can see our future, then we have no free will. It's all fixed, because the deity saw it even before the clock started ticking.

Also, your examples don't show free will. Since everything is going to unfold as the creator of the clock-work has determined before everything got rolling, there's no free will and we're all just robots with a illusion draped over our senses.

As for where we go when we die? If everything has been preset, then there's no question, is there? We're all pre-judged. That's very 'Calvinist' from what little I can gather of said belief.

Which is a kind of sucky place to be.

So...with no fingers getting stuck before us...there's nothing to make worrying about any deity, is there?

Very much cheers to all.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 10:29 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  That's a good question. Do we truly have free will? Honestly, I haven't done enough reading/thinking in that area to have a conclusive answer for you. It certainly is possible that the creator set initial conditions that would result in the development of free thinking individuals. I think that perhaps my view is that once humans developed the capability of free will the creator was no longer able to predict the outcome with precise certainty.


Evolving story. Pathological liar.

Quote:There is also the possibility that the creator is outside of time, like I mentioned before. In that case, just because he can see our decisions at the same time as he is creating those initial conditions, does that mean we didn't decide them? Think about it like God being able to see the future the way we see the past. I know who won gold yesterday because I was watching the Olympics, but I had no influence over who won.

Evolving story. Pathological liar.





Quote: That having been said, I'm just spit-balling, I don't really have a conclusive answer for you on that.


Evolving story. Pathological liar.

Quote:On the other part, I didn't say that the creator was faffing off somewhere else. Just because he chooses not to intervene on a day to day basis, doesn't mean that he doesn't watch his creation (or else why bother creating it?). Don't forget, a being with that level of intelligence would certainly be able to split his focus. He could certainly be watching his favorite TV show (the humans on earth show) while also knitting and chewing gum, etc.

Also, remember, just because he doesn't intervene during our lives, doesn't mean that he doesn't approve or disapprove with those actions, and it doesn't mean that he doesn't decide where we go upon death...if that's not a good reason to care, I don't know what is.

Evolving story. Made-up bullshit. Pathological liar.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 10:07 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 10:02 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  As long as we're in agreement that the evidence requires you to assume God exists in the first place.

Lol, no I definitely don't think we ever got to that point of agreement.

How does your argument not?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 10:43 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  So...the deity doesn't stick their finger into the clock-work and hence very well could be off doing something more important than 'Us'?

This could very well be the case, but it doesn't seem terribly likely to me. First, it would seem odd to create such an intricate creation as the universe and then not bother checking in on it now and then. Secondly, like I mentioned later in my response, wouldn't it make sense that a being of that level of intelligence would be able to multi-task? Watch us while attending to those "more important" things?

Quote:If the deity can see our future, then we have no free will. It's all fixed, because the deity saw it even before the clock started ticking.

Also, your examples don't show free will. Since everything is going to unfold as the creator of the clock-work has determined before everything got rolling, there's no free will and we're all just robots with a illusion draped over our senses.

I don't agree with that interpretation. Just because the creator may be able to see what decisions we choose to make, doesn't mean that we didn't exercise free will in making them. Remember, you are taking time out of the equation there.

Imagine if it were actually possible for a human to see the future. You look into your crystal ball and see an African soldier kill a dictator. Then, the next day on the news you see that your vision came true. Did that soldier exercise free will in killing the dictator, even though you knew it was going to happen? Of course he did. You weren't in Africa, and you played no causal relation to the events in question. The knowledge of the event is not synonymous with causing the event. (mind bendy stuff isn't it)

That having been said, maybe free will is an illusion. We may just be machines, I couldn't say for sure. But, either way, I don't agree that God's knowledge, or lack thereof, of future events necessarily solves that riddle.


Quote:As for where we go when we die? If everything has been preset, then there's no question, is there? We're all pre-judged. That's very 'Calvinist' from what little I can gather of said belief.

Which is a kind of sucky place to be.

So...with no fingers getting stuck before us...there's nothing to make worrying about any deity, is there?

Very much cheers to all.

I guess this one goes with the previous point. If we do have free will, then we can be held accountable for our actions. It's not pre-judged from our perspective because we still used our free will to make those decisions.

It is interesting to consider why the traditional view of heaven and hell is such a strict dichotomy. What if there are more than 2 levels (heaven and hell)? What if there are 5 or 10 or an infinite number? What if we just get sent in the afterlife to a world populated by those most similar to us. It may feel like heaven, without necessarily being the best place for all, or it might feel like hell just because you were an asshole in life and got stuck in a world full of assholes.

Just spit-balling again, but if an afterlife does exist, wouldn't it make sense for the creator to organize us into groups based on how we lived our life? Maybe that's why we live this life, so he knows where to slot us.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 04:28 PM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 11:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 10:07 AM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  Lol, no I definitely don't think we ever got to that point of agreement.

How does your argument not?

I admitted to using some assumptions such as the dismissal of the infinite chain of past events (and included the reasons for doing so), but if you remember the argument as I broke it down it did not have the creator's existence as any of the premises. It's still a conclusion.

Now, if what you mean is that I assumed the existence of a creator by using assumptions in my premises (ie. I didn't stick to only premises that I could 100% prove), then from that perspective you would be justified in saying that. But, I still prefer the term "educated guess".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2014 06:39 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 04:28 PM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  
(10-02-2014 11:56 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  How does your argument not?

I admitted to using some assumptions such as the dismissal of the infinite chain of past events (and included the reasons for doing so), but if you remember the argument as I broke it down it did not have the creator's existence as any of the premises. It's still a conclusion.


Liar. Not only do you assume a "creator's" existence, you assume that it "doesn't begin to exist/have a cause".


Quote:Now, if what you mean is that I assumed the existence of a creator by using assumptions in my premises (ie. I didn't stick to only premises that I could 100% prove), then from that perspective you would be justified in saying that. But, I still prefer the term "educated guess".

So THAT'S what you call your Question-Begging Special-Pleading Fallacy. Fuckwit.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2014, 07:36 PM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(10-02-2014 04:28 PM)lookingforanswers Wrote:  I admitted to using some assumptions such as the dismissal of the infinite chain of past events (and included the reasons for doing so), but if you remember the argument as I broke it down it did not have the creator's existence as any of the premises. It's still a conclusion.

My point is: all you have evidence for is that the universe exists. I understand why you think it has a cause: everything else you've witnessed does. But if you posit any type of cause, you "regress backward" one step and still have no answer for "what caused God?"

You are clearly and admittedly okay with believing in things that either have no cause or that have causes you don't understand. So, why does this suddenly "give evidence to a creator"? How do you know it's cause isn't the same as whatever God's is?

You still haven't answered that, you've admitted you can't answer it, and you've admitted that it's the same thing as what I'm asking, but "regressed one more step". So, you haven't proven God in your conclusion.

God is a possible answer to your question, and God's existence raises as many questions as it answers, so it's not really that much of an answer.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RobbyPants's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: