The go a little easy on theists thread
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08-04-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(08-04-2013 08:45 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Don't you understand that most every Christian testimony starts (not ends) with seeing a little something or hearing a few encouraging verses from the scriptures, having one's curiousity provoked, and then moving closer to God?

You know what encourages me? Other people and the natural world around me. Discoveries in science, acts of valor and selflesness, acts of love, charity and friendship. I am motivated by seeing the determination to survive and procreate. I am in awe of acts of cooperation by living things in the natural world. I am inspired by beautiful musical masterpieces and seeing the Milky Way on a cloudless night sky. I have felt my heart race swimming in the presence of the largest carnivore to have ever lived on this planet and I have felt my heart break when loved ones have died.

And in all of this I find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being. It adds nothing, in fact it sullies and cheapens everything that is worthwhile in humans. It is foul. I blame nothing on it and credit nothing to it, it is childish to do so. We, as a species, need to embrace what is in front of us and rid ourselves of this unnecessary, useless and demeaning concept of God(s).

You want to move closer to God/nature? Come down to the Florida Keys and I'll take you diving with sharks...once you enter the food chain mysticism melts away and you get a full-blown dose of reality. It's good medicine.

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.” ~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's." - Mark Twain in Eruption
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08-04-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
There are theists who visit our forum, but such a topic might get a better response on a Christian forum. Yes, you run the risk of getting banned or silenced simply for presenting an atheistic view on those forums -- it has happened to most of us who have done it. But still... there's little incentive for a theist to speak up to a public challenge on an atheist forum.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-04-2013, 10:55 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
The belief in God is based on faith.

Plausible, yes. Definitive, no.

Not really sure what you're going for here... anything can be "plausible". Empirical is definitive.

If you're asking for plausible evidence, there is an infinite amount of this.

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08-04-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
Quote:You know what encourages me? Other people and the natural world around me. Discoveries in science, acts of valor and selflesness, acts of love, charity and friendship. I am motivated by seeing the determination to survive and procreate. I am in awe of acts of cooperation by living things in the natural world. I am inspired by beautiful musical masterpieces and seeing the Milky Way on a cloudless night sky. I have felt my heart race swimming in the presence of the largest carnivore to have ever lived on this planet and I have felt my heart break when loved ones have died.

And in all of this I find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being. It adds nothing, in fact it sullies and cheapens everything that is worthwhile in humans. It is foul. I blame nothing on it and credit nothing to it, it is childish to do so. We, as a species, need to embrace what is in front of us and rid ourselves of this unnecessary, useless and demeaning concept of God(s).

You want to move closer to God/nature? Come down to the Florida Keys and I'll take you diving with sharks...once you enter the food chain mysticism melts away and you get a full-blown dose of reality. It's good medicine.
Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I was in Bahia Honda and saw sharks (luckily) this past December. I'm moved by all that moves you, I just want to know from you on a mechanistic evolutionary basis why:

*Discoveries in science excite you, since they often refute, confuse or confound our former beliefs as humans

*Acts of valor and selflessness, love, charity and friendship--all of which are laudatory in the scriptures but contribute only to our survival as a species, not as individuals--saying we're a social species like ants or bees does nothing to explain how this cooperation evolved, by the way--and all social members of a specie should have NOT survived over their habits of cooperation where they infected their hunting/gathering, etc.

*How does music inspire you? What process evolved that humans find certain musical harmonies such as chords not found in everyday nature to move us?

*Why did your heart break when loved ones die? This seems anti-survival minded to me. We all know people who've grieved overmuch and could not "move on". How did we as a higher specie get so "clingy" and require 18 years at home beyond 9 months of gestation?

Explain all this per classic evolutionary principles or modern science and you can go on to "find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being" successfully.
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08-04-2013, 08:47 PM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(08-04-2013 12:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You know what encourages me? Other people and the natural world around me. Discoveries in science, acts of valor and selflesness, acts of love, charity and friendship. I am motivated by seeing the determination to survive and procreate. I am in awe of acts of cooperation by living things in the natural world. I am inspired by beautiful musical masterpieces and seeing the Milky Way on a cloudless night sky. I have felt my heart race swimming in the presence of the largest carnivore to have ever lived on this planet and I have felt my heart break when loved ones have died.

And in all of this I find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being. It adds nothing, in fact it sullies and cheapens everything that is worthwhile in humans. It is foul. I blame nothing on it and credit nothing to it, it is childish to do so. We, as a species, need to embrace what is in front of us and rid ourselves of this unnecessary, useless and demeaning concept of God(s).

You want to move closer to God/nature? Come down to the Florida Keys and I'll take you diving with sharks...once you enter the food chain mysticism melts away and you get a full-blown dose of reality. It's good medicine.
Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I was in Bahia Honda and saw sharks (luckily) this past December. I'm moved by all that moves you, I just want to know from you on a mechanistic evolutionary basis why:

*Discoveries in science excite you, since they often refute, confuse or confound our former beliefs as humans

*Acts of valor and selflessness, love, charity and friendship--all of which are laudatory in the scriptures but contribute only to our survival as a species, not as individuals--saying we're a social species like ants or bees does nothing to explain how this cooperation evolved, by the way--and all social members of a specie should have NOT survived over their habits of cooperation where they infected their hunting/gathering, etc.

*How does music inspire you? What process evolved that humans find certain musical harmonies such as chords not found in everyday nature to move us?

*Why did your heart break when loved ones die? This seems anti-survival minded to me. We all know people who've grieved overmuch and could not "move on". How did we as a higher specie get so "clingy" and require 18 years at home beyond 9 months of gestation?

Explain all this per classic evolutionary principles or modern science and you can go on to "find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being" successfully.

Tomorrow, at the moment I hear a siren's song. Good night.

"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.” ~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's." - Mark Twain in Eruption
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08-04-2013, 10:39 PM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(08-04-2013 12:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Discoveries in science excite you, since they often refute, confuse or confound our former beliefs as humans

*Acts of valor and selflessness, love, charity and friendship--all of which are laudatory in the scriptures but contribute only to our survival as a species, not as individuals--saying we're a social species like ants or bees does nothing to explain how this cooperation evolved, by the way--and all social members of a specie should have NOT survived over their habits of cooperation where they infected their hunting/gathering, etc.

*How does music inspire you? What process evolved that humans find certain musical harmonies such as chords not found in everyday nature to move us?

*Why did your heart break when loved ones die? This seems anti-survival minded to me. We all know people who've grieved overmuch and could not "move on". How did we as a higher specie get so "clingy" and require 18 years at home beyond 9 months of gestation?

Explain all this per classic evolutionary principles or modern science and you can go on to "find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being" successfully.

Most of these have been well-researched, but I would suggest looking for the answer that you didn't ask for: why are human beings sentient while other organisms aren't? Daniel Dennett's book "Kinds of Minds" explains the evolutionary process that gave us sentience, and you can actually figure out the answers to these other questions once you understand that.

But do you honestly want answers, or are these back-handed attempts at ridiculing the idea of human traits arising from evolution? If I may pose one to you: "Why did your heart break when loved ones die?" You may recognize this as one you asked, but it makes more sense from the standpoint of a species that not only fights for its individual survival but the survival of every possible member than to explain it as souls merely passing through a plane of existence. If you really believe that a person is merely losing their physical existence and moving on to "a better place", why do you grieve their death?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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09-04-2013, 05:25 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(08-04-2013 12:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You know what encourages me? Other people and the natural world around me. Discoveries in science, acts of valor and selflesness, acts of love, charity and friendship. I am motivated by seeing the determination to survive and procreate. I am in awe of acts of cooperation by living things in the natural world. I am inspired by beautiful musical masterpieces and seeing the Milky Way on a cloudless night sky. I have felt my heart race swimming in the presence of the largest carnivore to have ever lived on this planet and I have felt my heart break when loved ones have died.

And in all of this I find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being. It adds nothing, in fact it sullies and cheapens everything that is worthwhile in humans. It is foul. I blame nothing on it and credit nothing to it, it is childish to do so. We, as a species, need to embrace what is in front of us and rid ourselves of this unnecessary, useless and demeaning concept of God(s).

You want to move closer to God/nature? Come down to the Florida Keys and I'll take you diving with sharks...once you enter the food chain mysticism melts away and you get a full-blown dose of reality. It's good medicine.
Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I was in Bahia Honda and saw sharks (luckily) this past December. I'm moved by all that moves you, I just want to know from you on a mechanistic evolutionary basis why:

*Discoveries in science excite you, since they often refute, confuse or confound our former beliefs as humans

*Acts of valor and selflessness, love, charity and friendship--all of which are laudatory in the scriptures but contribute only to our survival as a species, not as individuals--saying we're a social species like ants or bees does nothing to explain how this cooperation evolved, by the way--and all social members of a specie should have NOT survived over their habits of cooperation where they infected their hunting/gathering, etc.

*How does music inspire you? What process evolved that humans find certain musical harmonies such as chords not found in everyday nature to move us?

*Why did your heart break when loved ones die? This seems anti-survival minded to me. We all know people who've grieved overmuch and could not "move on". How did we as a higher specie get so "clingy" and require 18 years at home beyond 9 months of gestation?

Explain all this per classic evolutionary principles or modern science and you can go on to "find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being" successfully.

HJ,

One of the tactics I have seen used before by those professing there is a God is to ask questions like yours in an attempt to shift the burden of proof back onto the skeptic. Suffice is to say that I do not require mysticism to answer any of them. I could go into the vast library of knowledge produced and assembled by those experts in their fields and I could tell you what they say. And yet I propose that those answers would still not satisfy you because none of them have God as THE answer. I'll let you do your own research if you are really interested and not just testing what I personally know.

As Hitchen's challange asked, and I paraphrase, "Show me an act by a religious person that cannot also be done by a non-religious person". So in love, charity, selflessness, valor and cooperation no God need apply.

And finally, your mode of refuttal to discredit my response, is a transparent effort at mis-direction. It would be like asking me to know how penicillin works at a molecular level before I can claim it is effective or how the physics of aerodynamic work on a wing before I could board an airplane. The questions sound relevant to my post but they are not.

Not just you but most religious people desperately want to find God in the formula but He simply isn't necessary to arrive at the answers.

***
Napoleon: M. Laplace, they tell me you have written this large book [Système du Monde] on the system of the universe, and have never even mentioned its Creator.
Laplace: I have no need for this hypothesis. (Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothèse-là.)
— Pierre-Simon Laplace
Quoted in Augustus De Morgan, Budget of Paradoxes (1915), Vol. 2, 2-3.

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"Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.” ~ Ambrose Bierce
“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's." - Mark Twain in Eruption
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09-04-2013, 07:26 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(08-04-2013 12:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You know what encourages me? Other people and the natural world around me. Discoveries in science, acts of valor and selflesness, acts of love, charity and friendship. I am motivated by seeing the determination to survive and procreate. I am in awe of acts of cooperation by living things in the natural world. I am inspired by beautiful musical masterpieces and seeing the Milky Way on a cloudless night sky. I have felt my heart race swimming in the presence of the largest carnivore to have ever lived on this planet and I have felt my heart break when loved ones have died.

And in all of this I find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being. It adds nothing, in fact it sullies and cheapens everything that is worthwhile in humans. It is foul. I blame nothing on it and credit nothing to it, it is childish to do so. We, as a species, need to embrace what is in front of us and rid ourselves of this unnecessary, useless and demeaning concept of God(s).

You want to move closer to God/nature? Come down to the Florida Keys and I'll take you diving with sharks...once you enter the food chain mysticism melts away and you get a full-blown dose of reality. It's good medicine.
Thanks for your very thoughtful post. I was in Bahia Honda and saw sharks (luckily) this past December. I'm moved by all that moves you, I just want to know from you on a mechanistic evolutionary basis why:

*Discoveries in science excite you, since they often refute, confuse or confound our former beliefs as humans

*Acts of valor and selflessness, love, charity and friendship--all of which are laudatory in the scriptures but contribute only to our survival as a species, not as individuals--saying we're a social species like ants or bees does nothing to explain how this cooperation evolved, by the way--and all social members of a specie should have NOT survived over their habits of cooperation where they infected their hunting/gathering, etc.

*How does music inspire you? What process evolved that humans find certain musical harmonies such as chords not found in everyday nature to move us?

*Why did your heart break when loved ones die? This seems anti-survival minded to me. We all know people who've grieved overmuch and could not "move on". How did we as a higher specie get so "clingy" and require 18 years at home beyond 9 months of gestation?

Explain all this per classic evolutionary principles or modern science and you can go on to "find absolutelty no reason to interject a mystical, magical being" successfully.

The lesson of parsimony is that the inclusion of extraneous variables is without bound. Here you have it easy. A bunch of atheists means you can get away with "goddidit." Yet go to a Christian site, and what happens? A bunch of snowflakes quoting scripture at each other. Why would there be this division if there was only "one god?" The simplest answer is, "there isn't;" the simplest explanation that "simulation of mind of another in mind," empathy, provides the mechanism for the "personal god."

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12-04-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
Scared 'em off, then?

Nonsense is nonsense, but the history of nonsense is a very important science.
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12-04-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: The go a little easy on theists thread
(12-04-2013 08:38 AM)Abdul Alhazred Wrote:  Scared 'em off, then?

Ya gotta be quick to pounce on the theists around here. Big Grin

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