The god argument.
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04-01-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 11:39 AM)kim Wrote:  
Quote:No, string theory is an interesting model, but no evidence - yet.

Now... don't be messing with m'strings... I likes m'stringys!! [Image: 11.gif] Strings is m'devil work.

Just saying that string theory is not very well fleshed-out; it doesn't make any testable predictions. I do like its elegance.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-01-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 11:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2012 11:39 AM)kim Wrote:  
Quote:No, string theory is an interesting model, but no evidence - yet.

Now... don't be messing with m'strings... I likes m'stringys!! [Image: 11.gif] Strings is m'devil work.

Just saying that string theory is not very well fleshed-out; it doesn't make any testable predictions. I do like its elegance.

Sceintist 'X': Imagine if all matter was a series of vibrating strings in an 11 dimensional universe.
Sceintist 'Y': What would be the implications of that?
Sceintist 'X': I dunno.

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04-01-2012, 01:13 PM
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 11:57 AM)Chas Wrote:  Just saying that string theory is not very well fleshed-out...

Sure it is; every year - into more and more less and less. Universities in America not accepting applications for new string theorists in their physics departments last year, a continual decline in the consideration that stringiness is a TOE, Lubos his own self saying there's a fifty percent chance that a 125 Higgs is the last thing to pop out of the LHC... taps, baby.

Sorry, Kim. I don't like it. You're gonna hafta go straighten 'em out, you wanna fix it. Wink

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04-01-2012, 01:20 PM
 
RE: The god argument.
If you can look at the universe and say there is no design, then you can look at the sky and say it isn’t blue, and there’s nothing to be argued. If you first insist that there was a Big Bang, and then deny there was a Big Bang and opt for the impossibility of an eternal universe instead, then there is nothing to be argued. If you’re going to say that evolution has no purpose or design when the very definition of the word implies purpose and design, then there’s nothing to be argued. If you are going to deny any personal experiences a person has without even asking what those were, then there is nothing to be argued. You simply see what you want to believe.

And this is the one fact I know about atheists: They want to be atheists.
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04-01-2012, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2012 02:17 PM by scientician.)
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 01:20 PM)Egor Wrote:  If you can look at the universe and say there is no design, then you can look at the sky and say it isn’t blue, and there’s nothing to be argued. If you first insist that there was a Big Bang, and then deny there was a Big Bang and opt for the impossibility of an eternal universe instead, then there is nothing to be argued. If you’re going to say that evolution has no purpose or design when the very definition of the word implies purpose and design, then there’s nothing to be argued. If you are going to deny any personal experiences a person has without even asking what those were, then there is nothing to be argued. You simply see what you want to believe.

And this is the one fact I know about atheists: They want to be atheists.

What dictionary are you using that says the very definition of evolution implies purpose and design? The basic definition is change in allele frequency over time. Or change across generations in heritable traits. Design? Can't find it. Besides we could call it Jesus-Mary-Holy-Volution and it would still not imply purpose or design because evolution is just a word ascribed to a biological phenomenon.
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04-01-2012, 02:20 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2012 02:24 PM by Malleus.)
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 01:20 PM)Egor Wrote:  And this is the one fact I know about atheists: They want to be atheists.

You don't know shit. I tried my absolute best to prevent becoming an atheist because I was scared shitless of what I thought the word means. I prayed my ass off for some answers to my questions, for a sign, for someone to just say the right things that would make sense to me, for anything. I didn't get shit.

Nobody made me an atheist. I had no idea who Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Dennett, and all the others were. My own religion (which, btw, is the same as yours) made me an atheist against my will. I thought I was the only one on this planet who has too many questions in his head and I only ran into idiots like you who didn't and continue not to have any bit of good answers to make my questions go away.

I had been an atheist for quite some time before I even realized that I fit the definition and I'm not alone. By that time I only accepted that, as much as I loathed the word "atheist", that's what I am

I know that , according to your own opinion, you know everything, but I will have to politely ask you to fuck off and stop talking out of your ass. You're insensitive, ignorant, deluded, full of a very non-christian hate and pretty much stupid. You are a disgrace to your own god and to the human race. Look at yourself in a mirror and think really hard if a just and loving god would want anything to do with someone like you.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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04-01-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: The god argument.
well its self design and self improvement over previous models, homo sapiens is homo 9.0 (insert number of previes homo species)
and asking what happened before the big bang, before time, as Hawking says, is like asking for the most southern point south of the south pole, it doesnt exist.

The universe is terribly designed, we inhabit a planet which most of it is uninhabitable more than 2/3, in a solar system with unhabitable planets,
in a galaxy among 100 billion galaxies each with its own 100 billion stars with their own billions of planets. and were on a collision course with andromeda if our sun doesnt go supernova first. and then the universe will slowly die out and cool down.
Sounds like a pretty bad divine plan to me.

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04-01-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 01:20 PM)Egor Wrote:  If you can look at the universe and say there is no design, then you can look at the sky and say it isn’t blue, and there’s nothing to be argued. If you first insist that there was a Big Bang, and then deny there was a Big Bang and opt for the impossibility of an eternal universe instead, then there is nothing to be argued. If you’re going to say that evolution has no purpose or design when the very definition of the word implies purpose and design, then there’s nothing to be argued. If you are going to deny any personal experiences a person has without even asking what those were, then there is nothing to be argued. You simply see what you want to believe.

And this is the one fact I know about atheists: They want to be atheists.

Where to start.
How about with your first assertion that one can only see design in the universe. This implies that you must know of a universe or an example of an undesigned universe and you can therefore discern differences between the designed universe and the undesigned universe. I would argue that nothing that exists and nothing that happens is any different than what one might expect in a completely undesigned universe. There are 12 particles of matter and 4 forces of nature, and everything we know of is a result of their existence. Events occur at spatial and temporal scales at the same rate as chance. Please give me evidence of a design.

As for the sky is blue argument, well, bees don't see the sky as blue.

I never denied the Big Bang as being invalid. The Big Bang describes the expansion of the universe, not its creation. It also does not define any time before the Big Bang nor why it occurred. Educate yourself on such matters before asserting that I am ignorant of it.

Evolution is about adaptation to the environment. I never said evolution had no purpose. It simply has no designed purpose and (over long enough time intervals) behaves at a rate that is still the same as chance. Which organisms survive and which go extinct is a function of their adaptations as well as factors such as climate and catastrophic events, like asteroid impact. The dinosaurs were well adapted to their environment, but a catastrophic event changed the climate so radically so quickly that they were unable to adapt (evolve) quick enough to survive, except the birds who are technically dinosaurs and are doing just fine. These catastrophic events occur at, get this, completely random moments in time and space. This is why predicting when an Earthquake, asteroid, tornado or volcanic eruption will occur is impossible. There are certainly ways of assessing where they may occur and there may even be warning signs that the event is imminent, but ultimately they are still random events.

And personal experiences are rubbish. I had a personal experience that I was abducted by aliens and then they erased my memory but a later head injury caused me to remember it. Personal experiences are unverifiable and unfalsifiable and are as such, not scientific evidence. Even something like a near-death experience can be explained as the result of a lack of oxygen to the brain causing hallucinations, but those that experience them often times prefer the fantastic explanation over the logical one with evidence behind it. Provide scientific evidence to go with your personal experiences and then we can talk. That is why I did not ask you for them and why I don't care about them. Your personal experiences have no bearing on truth or fact.

As for your final conclusion that all atheists are atheists because they want to be is as laughable as any thing else. I spent the majority of my life as a "christian", or at the very least believing I was one. I spent years subsequent to that wanting to believe in something and performing amazing feats of apologetic acrobatics to justify my supernatural beliefs. In the end I realized they were not logical, verifiable, falsifiable or any better than the beliefs I had already begun to shed. My desire to believe in something or not believe in something has no bearing on what I actually believe. I want to believe that Santa Claus is real, I want to believe that aliens really are living among us and can show us the furthest reaches of the universe, I want to believe in a place where all suffering is gone and people live in eternal happiness, but I can't. Why? Because there is no evidence for it and it makes no logical sense. Desire has no bearing on it. Now, please stop assuming you know me and actually read the words I have written for you, because I will not respond again unless I am confident you have done so.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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04-01-2012, 02:36 PM
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 01:20 PM)Egor Wrote:  If you can look at the universe and say there is no design, then you can look at the sky and say it isn’t blue, and there’s nothing to be argued. If you first insist that there was a Big Bang, and then deny there was a Big Bang and opt for the impossibility of an eternal universe instead, then there is nothing to be argued. If you’re going to say that evolution has no purpose or design when the very definition of the word implies purpose and design, then there’s nothing to be argued. If you are going to deny any personal experiences a person has without even asking what those were, then there is nothing to be argued. You simply see what you want to believe.

And this is the one fact I know about atheists: They want to be atheists.

The sky is black. Blue is light scattering in the atmosphere. Red? More atmosphere between you and sun; dawn and dusk. Science. Give it a try sometime. Put it to your personal experiences, come up with validated hypotheses.

I don't see anything. Visual information transmits down the optic nerve. It's all about electricity and chemicals. Got any intelligence? Did you know, there are most likely at least two types? One is a form of intellectual ability, measured as IQ. The other is chemical, emotional context represented as love and morality.

Yeah, second one's mine, a verified hypothesis. When it becomes theory, ask not for whom the bell tolls, Christian. It tolls for thee.

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04-01-2012, 02:59 PM
RE: The god argument.
(04-01-2012 01:20 PM)Egor Wrote:  And this is the one fact I know about atheists: They want to be atheists.
How dare you say such a thing. Are you inside any atheists head and know what they want? Indeed most atheists I know (including myself) did not want to be atheists and had huge struggle accepting that all the supernatural beliefs are complete bogus. All the doubts and teachings, the whole brainwashing.
It is friggin scary to do that step and once you did it you still fight with yourself because some stuff got stuck so deep in you over the years. Then about your social environment, you have two options, deal with those people if that is possible or actually also leave them. Both not cool.

You sir, have not a clue what you are talking about! Educate yourself!

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