The great josephus interpolation
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13-09-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
I really hate arguments from theists quoting "historians" who are after the fact first and foremost, but in reality were not mere "historians" but apologists.

Josephus existing still would not a 6 day earth true. It would not make the "poof" "god did it" magic of men popping out of dirt, or women popping out of ribs or babies being born without a second set of DNA.

George Washington existing would not make an absurd claim such as "George Washington had the power to fart a Lamborghini out of his ass" true.

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13-09-2014, 11:36 AM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
(12-09-2014 09:29 PM)DLJ Wrote:  GWoG,
Thank you. I enjoyed reading that.

For point 2), 3rd sentence, I think an 'if' is missing. Wink
For point 3)... lifted rather than listed?
For point 7) then? or than?

Minimalist,
TF? Track and Field? Tooth Fairy? That's Funny?

Thanks DLJ, this damn speech software gets me all the time, I did a quick review but missed some stuff Unsure

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-09-2014, 11:45 AM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2014 12:33 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: The great josephus interpolation
(13-09-2014 04:51 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It's all very well to engage in nihilistic demolition work but it doesn't acutally jive with reality.

If you pick up a copy of Norton's Anthology of English Literature, the one you read from cover to cover in first year of undergrad, all 5000 pages of it, the first piece of literature in it is "The Dream of the Rood", written some time around the 8th century. It's of Old English/Scots origin. It refers to a "young Christ" mounting the "Rood", which the piece refers to as the cross or tree which the people worshipped and was taken and turned into an instrument of execution by a conquering people. The fact that the "young Chirst" mounts the Rood doesn't resurrect Jesus. It resurrects the Rood as an object of worship. The Rood is the Tau of ancient Judaism, the tree of life, a phallic symbol.

If you actually take the time to study European and Middle East history and Christian history you will find that it is only in Roman Catholicism, which adopted the New Testament, that Jesus is a god figure or divine. There are several different names for these variants of Christianity which are based on oral traditions of peoples who were illiterate. This belief that Jesus was just a man who was crucified and not divine was held by the Saxons before Charlemagne forced them to convert, and by the Albegensians/Cathars, the Arian Christians, Armenians, Copts, and Christians of the Near East.

So, how is it that we come to this very peculiar position. The Romans needed to have ideological purity and set about converting all these people to a belief that Jesus was a god when they only thought he was a human being. They essentially erased whoever this man was from history and substituted this character in the New Testament who is clearly a ficionalization of something or someone. Even the Muslims thing Jesus was a real man and the Koran says he will return to slay the false messiah at the gates of Lydda, riding a horse and holding a spear. He is a warrior figure.

What you now do with this type of analysis is to finish off what the Roman Catholic Church started, the rewriting of the history of the first century AD.

What you miss is the obvious. There is no point or reason for peoples all over the Near and Middle East, Europe and North Africa to "invent" a man who they only consider a "prophet" or avenging leader and whose contribution is simply to preach a gnostic message and whose significance is that he resurrects the Tau, which these people worshipped.

The better approach would be to study the history of the first century and see if there was a person who resembled this figure, rather than focusing on a specific timeframe in a fictional political manifesto which is completely unreliable and unsupported by history of the 30s AD.

Look in a later era and you find a Jesus who was a high priest, was a Nazarene, was crucified, survived, was taken off the cross by Josephus himself, fed the poor, educated children and preached a "Christian" moral philosophy.

Not doing this exercise just shows a dogmatic mindset.

I can dismantle the myth book by book, person by person and do it systematically. I am building quite the little personal stockpile of information. I decided to pick apart Josephus because I have been seeing him slung around as their great piece of validating evidence, when in fact, it is an interpolation. Here are a couple of other of my favs..

Philo of Alexandria
The early years of the Roman Republic is one of the most historically documented times in history. One of the writers alive during the time of Jesus was Philo-Judaeus (sometimes known as Philo of Alexandria).

Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion happened with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness and resurrection of the dead took place – when Christ himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These amazing marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were all unknown to him.

It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not.

Philo might be considered the investigative reporter of his day. He was there on location during the early first century, talking with people who should have remembered or at least heard the stories, observed, taking notes, documenting. He reported nothing about Jesus.


Justus of Tiberius
There was also a historian named Justus of Tiberius who was a native of Galilee, the homeland of Jesus. He wrote a history covering the time when Christ supposedly lived. This history is now lost, but a ninth century Christian scholar named Photius had read it and wrote: “he [Justus] makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, of what things happened to him, or other wonderful works that he did.”

The forensic study of biblical history fascinates me, to try to dig out the pseudepigrapha, and separate it from the interpolations, parables and allegorical writings...then ponder the little that remains..

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-09-2014, 04:46 PM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
(13-09-2014 11:45 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(13-09-2014 04:51 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It's all very well to engage in nihilistic demolition work but it doesn't acutally jive with reality.

If you pick up a copy of Norton's Anthology of English Literature, the one you read from cover to cover in first year of undergrad, all 5000 pages of it, the first piece of literature in it is "The Dream of the Rood", written some time around the 8th century. It's of Old English/Scots origin. It refers to a "young Christ" mounting the "Rood", which the piece refers to as the cross or tree which the people worshipped and was taken and turned into an instrument of execution by a conquering people. The fact that the "young Chirst" mounts the Rood doesn't resurrect Jesus. It resurrects the Rood as an object of worship. The Rood is the Tau of ancient Judaism, the tree of life, a phallic symbol.

If you actually take the time to study European and Middle East history and Christian history you will find that it is only in Roman Catholicism, which adopted the New Testament, that Jesus is a god figure or divine. There are several different names for these variants of Christianity which are based on oral traditions of peoples who were illiterate. This belief that Jesus was just a man who was crucified and not divine was held by the Saxons before Charlemagne forced them to convert, and by the Albegensians/Cathars, the Arian Christians, Armenians, Copts, and Christians of the Near East.

So, how is it that we come to this very peculiar position. The Romans needed to have ideological purity and set about converting all these people to a belief that Jesus was a god when they only thought he was a human being. They essentially erased whoever this man was from history and substituted this character in the New Testament who is clearly a ficionalization of something or someone. Even the Muslims thing Jesus was a real man and the Koran says he will return to slay the false messiah at the gates of Lydda, riding a horse and holding a spear. He is a warrior figure.

What you now do with this type of analysis is to finish off what the Roman Catholic Church started, the rewriting of the history of the first century AD.

What you miss is the obvious. There is no point or reason for peoples all over the Near and Middle East, Europe and North Africa to "invent" a man who they only consider a "prophet" or avenging leader and whose contribution is simply to preach a gnostic message and whose significance is that he resurrects the Tau, which these people worshipped.

The better approach would be to study the history of the first century and see if there was a person who resembled this figure, rather than focusing on a specific timeframe in a fictional political manifesto which is completely unreliable and unsupported by history of the 30s AD.

Look in a later era and you find a Jesus who was a high priest, was a Nazarene, was crucified, survived, was taken off the cross by Josephus himself, fed the poor, educated children and preached a "Christian" moral philosophy.

Not doing this exercise just shows a dogmatic mindset.

I can dismantle the myth book by book, person by person and do it systematically. I am building quite the little personal stockpile of information. I decided to pick apart Josephus because I have been seeing him slung around as their great piece of validating evidence, when in fact, it is an interpolation. Here are a couple of other of my favs..

Philo of Alexandria
The early years of the Roman Republic is one of the most historically documented times in history. One of the writers alive during the time of Jesus was Philo-Judaeus (sometimes known as Philo of Alexandria).

Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion happened with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness and resurrection of the dead took place – when Christ himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These amazing marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were all unknown to him.

It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not.

Philo might be considered the investigative reporter of his day. He was there on location during the early first century, talking with people who should have remembered or at least heard the stories, observed, taking notes, documenting. He reported nothing about Jesus.


Justus of Tiberius
There was also a historian named Justus of Tiberius who was a native of Galilee, the homeland of Jesus. He wrote a history covering the time when Christ supposedly lived. This history is now lost, but a ninth century Christian scholar named Photius had read it and wrote: “he [Justus] makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, of what things happened to him, or other wonderful works that he did.”

The forensic study of biblical history fascinates me, to try to dig out the pseudepigrapha, and separate it from the interpolations, parables and allegorical writings...then ponder the little that remains..

Do you have any good books or websites regarding Philo? I've come across his name and a smattering of references to his writings but nothing in depth? I Love history, particularly ancient history.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-09-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
(13-09-2014 04:46 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(13-09-2014 11:45 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I can dismantle the myth book by book, person by person and do it systematically. I am building quite the little personal stockpile of information. I decided to pick apart Josephus because I have been seeing him slung around as their great piece of validating evidence, when in fact, it is an interpolation. Here are a couple of other of my favs..

Philo of Alexandria
The early years of the Roman Republic is one of the most historically documented times in history. One of the writers alive during the time of Jesus was Philo-Judaeus (sometimes known as Philo of Alexandria).

Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion happened with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness and resurrection of the dead took place – when Christ himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven. These amazing marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were all unknown to him.

It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not.

Philo might be considered the investigative reporter of his day. He was there on location during the early first century, talking with people who should have remembered or at least heard the stories, observed, taking notes, documenting. He reported nothing about Jesus.


Justus of Tiberius
There was also a historian named Justus of Tiberius who was a native of Galilee, the homeland of Jesus. He wrote a history covering the time when Christ supposedly lived. This history is now lost, but a ninth century Christian scholar named Photius had read it and wrote: “he [Justus] makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, of what things happened to him, or other wonderful works that he did.”

The forensic study of biblical history fascinates me, to try to dig out the pseudepigrapha, and separate it from the interpolations, parables and allegorical writings...then ponder the little that remains..

Do you have any good books or websites regarding Philo? I've come across his name and a smattering of references to his writings but nothing in depth? I Love history, particularly ancient history.

These have a wealth of information.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/

http://www.philosophybasics.com/philosophers_philo.html

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/philo.html

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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13-09-2014, 11:37 PM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
Chapter XXXVIII of Philo's "Embassy to Gaius" (meaning Caligula.)

Quote:XXXVIII. (299) "Moreover, I have it in my power to relate one act of ambition on his part, though I suffered an infinite number of evils when he was alive; but nevertheless the truth is considered dear, and much to be honoured by you. Pilate was one of the emperor's lieutenants, having been appointed governor of Judaea. He, not more with the object of doing honour to Tiberius than with that of vexing the multitude, dedicated some gilt shields in the palace of Herod, in the holy city; which had no form nor any other forbidden thing represented on them except some necessary inscription, which mentioned these two facts, the name of the person who had placed them there, and the person in whose honour they were so placed there. (300) But when the multitude heard what had been done, and when the circumstance became notorious, then the people, putting forward the four sons of the king, who were in no respect inferior to the kings themselves, in fortune or in rank, and his other descendants, and those magistrates who were among them at the time, entreated him to alter and to rectify the innovation which he had committed in respect of the shields; and not to make any alteration in their national customs, which had hitherto been preserved without any interruption, without being in the least degree changed by any king of emperor. (301) "But when he steadfastly refused this petition (for he was a man of a very inflexible disposition, and very merciless as well as very obstinate), they cried out: 'Do not cause a sedition; do not make war upon us; do not destroy the peace which exists. The honour of the emperor is not identical with dishonour to the ancient laws; let it not be to you a pretence for heaping insult on our nation. Tiberius is not desirous that any of our laws or customs shall be destroyed. And if you yourself say that he is, show us either some command from him, or some letter, or something of the kind, that we, who have been sent to you as ambassadors, may cease to trouble you, and may address our supplications to your master.' (302) "But this last sentence exasperated him in the greatest possible degree, as he feared least they might in reality go on an embassy to the emperor, and might impeach him with respect to other particulars of his government, in respect of his corruption, and his acts of insolence, and his rapine, and his habit of insulting people, and his cruelty, and his continual murders of people untried and uncondemned, and his never ending, and gratuitous, and most grievous inhumanity. (303) Therefore, being exceedingly angry, and being at all times a man of most ferocious passions, he was in great perplexity, neither venturing to take down what he had once set up, nor wishing to do any thing which could be acceptable to his subjects, and at the same time being sufficiently acquainted with the firmness of Tiberius on these points. And those who were in power in our nation, seeing this, and perceiving that he was inclined to change his mind as to what he had done, but that he was not willing to be thought to do so, wrote a most supplicatory letter to Tiberius. (304) And he, when he had read it, what did he say of Pilate, and what threats did he utter against him! But it is beside our purpose at present to relate to you how very angry he was, although he was not very liable to sudden anger; since the facts speak for themselves; (305) for immediately, without putting any thing off till the next day, he wrote a letter, reproaching and reviling him in the most bitter manner for his act of unprecedented audacity and wickedness, and commanding him immediately to take down the shields and to convey them away from the metropolis of Judaea to Caesarea, on the sea which had been named Caesarea Augusta, after his grandfather, in order that they might be set up in the temple of Augustus. And accordingly, they were set up in that edifice. And in this way he provided for two matters: both for the honour due to the emperor, and for the preservation of the ancient customs of the city.


Funny how in detailing Pilate's crimes, Philo never suggests anything remotely similar to the jesus story.

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14-09-2014, 07:24 AM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
The Saxons couldn't read or write and the NT was in Latin. They were Arian Christians who did not believe in the Trinity. This poem shows that they saw themselves as having a religion prior to Jesus which venerated the Tau or Tree of Life.

The real problem you have is that Armenians adopted Christianity in the first century and were being persecuted by 110AD. It is ridiculous to suggest that people who lived only hundreds of miles away from Jerusalem, travelled there, lived there, didn't know that Jesus was just some kind of hoax. This is like people today being unable to discern that Mao or Hitler weren't real people. It's just asinine reasoning which begins with what you want to be your conclusion and then taking an eraser and trying to rub out what you don't like. A billion Muslims view Jesus as a human "prophet" figure, Jews wrote of him as a person. As of 110 AD people were being persecuted for following him and it is impossible to prove that they had any access at all to any of the Gnostic gospels or that they could have read them.

Dream of the Rood

Listen, I will tell the best of visions,
what came to me in the middle of the night,
when voice-bearers dwelled in rest.
It seemed to me that I saw a more wonderful tree
5 lifted in the air, wound round with light, Click for translation
the brightest of beams. That beacon was entirely
cased in gold; beautiful gems stood
at the corners of the earth, likewise there were five
upon the cross-beam. All those fair through creation
10 gazed on the angel of the Lord there. There was certainly no
gallows of the wicked; Click for translation
but the holy spirits beheld it there,
men over the earth and all this glorious creation.
Wondrous was the victory-tree, and I stained with sins,
wounded with guilts. I saw the tree of glory,
15 honoured with garments, shining with joys, Click for translation
covered with gold; gems had
covered magnificently the tree of the forest.
Nevertheless, I was able to perceive through that gold
the ancient hostility of wretches, so that it first began
20 to bleed on the right side. I was all drenched with sorrows. Click for translation
I was frightened by the beautiful vision; I saw that urgent
beacon
change its covering and colours: sometimes it was soaked with
wetness,
stained with the coursing of blood; sometimes adorned with
treasure.
Yet as I lay there a long while
25 I beheld sorrowful the tree of the Saviour, Click for translation
until I heard it utter a sound;
it began to speak words, the best of wood:
"That was very long ago, I remember it still,
that I was cut down from the edge of the wood,
30 ripped up by my roots. They seized me there, strong enemies, Click for translation
made me a spectacle for themselves there, commanded me to
raise up their criminals.
Men carried me there on their shoulders, until they set me
on a hill,Click for footnote
enemies enough fastened me there. I saw then the Saviour of
mankind
hasten with great zeal, as if he wanted to climb up on me.
35 There I did not dare, against the word of the Lord, Click for translation
bow or break, when I saw the
corners of the earth tremble. I might have
felled all the enemies; even so, I stood fast.
He stripped himself then, young hero - that was God almighty -
40 strong and resolute; he ascended on the high gallows, Click for translation
brave in the sight of many, when he wanted to ransom
mankind.
I trembled when the warrior embraced me; even then I did not
dare to bow to earth,
fall to the corners of the earth, but I had to stand fast.
I was reared a cross. I raised up the powerful King,
45 the Lord of heaven; I did not dare to bend. Click for translation
They pierced me with dark nails; on me are the wounds visible,
the open wounds of malice; I did not dare to injure any of them.
They mocked us both together. I was all drenched with blood
poured out from that man's side after he had sent forth his spirit.
50 I have experienced on that hillside many
cruelties of fate. I saw the God of hosts Click for translation
violently stretched out. Darkness had
covered with clouds the Ruler's corpse,
the gleaming light. Shadows went forth
55 dark under the clouds. All creation wept, Click for translation
lamented the King's fall. Christ was on the cross.
Yet there eager ones came from afar
to that noble one; I beheld all that.
I was all drenched with sorrow; nevertheless I bowed down to the hands of the men,
60 humble, with great eagerness. There they took almighty God, Click for translation
lifted him from that oppressive torment. The warriors forsook me then
standing covered with moisture; I was all wounded with arrows.
They laid the weary-limbed one down there, they stood at the head of his body,
they beheld the Lord of heaven there, and he himself rested there a while,
65 weary after the great battle. They began to fashion a tomb for him, Click for translation
warriors in the sight of the slayer; they carved that from bright stone,
they set the Lord of victories in there. They began to sing the sorrow-song for him,
wretched in the evening-time; then they wanted to travel again,
weary from the glorious Lord. He rested there with little company.Click for footnote
70 Nevertheless, weeping, weClick for footnote stood there a good while Click for translation
in a fixed position, after the voice departed up
of the warriors. The corpse grew cold,
the fair live-dwelling. Then men began to fell us
all to the ground: that was a terrible fate.
75 Men buried us in a deep pit; nevertheless the Lord's thanes, Click for translation
friends,Click for footnote discovered me there,
adorned me with gold and silver.
Now you might hear, my beloved hero,
that I have experienced the work of evil-doers,
80 grievous sorrows. Now the time has come Click for translation
that I will be honoured far and wide
by men over the earth and all this glorious creation;
they will pray to this beacon. On me the Son of God
suffered for a while; because of that I am glorious now,
85 towering under the heavens, and I am able to heal Click for translation
each one of those who is in awe of me.
Formerly I was made the hardest of punishments,
most hateful to the people, before I opened for them,
for the voice-bearers, the true way of life.
90 Listen, the Lord of glory, the Guardian of the kingdom of heaven, Click for translation
then honoured me over the forest trees,
just as he, almighty God, also honoured
his mother, Mary herself, for all men,
over all womankind.
95 Now I urge you, my beloved man, Click for translation
that you tell men about this vision:
reveal with words that it is the tree of glory
on which almighty God suffered
for mankind's many sins
100 and Adam's ancient deeds.
Death he tasted there; nevertheless, the Lord rose again Click for translation
with his great might to help mankind.
He ascended into heaven. He will come again
to this earth to seek mankind.
105 on doomsday, the Lord himself, Click for translation
almighty God, and his angels with him,
so that he will then judge, he who has the power of judgement,
each one of them, for what they themselves have
earned here earlier in this transitory life.
110 Nor may any of them be unafraid there Click for translation
because of the words which the Saviour will speak:
he will ask in front of the multitude where the person might be
who for the Lord's name would
taste bitter death, just as he did before on that tree.
115 But then they will be fearful and little think Click for translation
what they might begin to say to Christ.
Then there will be no need for any of those to be very afraid
who bear before them in the breast the best of trees.
But by means of the rood each soul
120 who thinks to dwell with the Ruler Click for translation
must seek the kingdom from the earthly way.'
I prayed to the tree with a happy spirit then,
with great zeal, there where I was alone
with little company. My spirit was
125 inspired with longing for the way forward; I experienced in all Click for translation
many periods of longing. It is now my life's hope
that I might seek the tree of victory
alone more often than all men,
to honour it well. My desire for that is
130 great in my mind, and my protection is Click for translation
directed to the cross. I do not have many wealthy
friends on earth; but they have gone forward from here,
passed from the joys of this world, sought for themselves the King of glory;
they live now in heaven with the High Father,
135 they dwell in glory. And I myself hope Click for translation
each day for when the Lord's cross,
that I looked at here on earth,
will fetch me from this transitory life,
and then bring me where there is great bliss,
140 joy in heaven, where the Lord's people Click for translation
are set in feasting, where there is unceasing bliss;
and then will set me where I might afterwards
dwell in glory fully with the saints
to partake of joy. May the Lord be a friend to me,
145 he who here on earth suffered previously Click for translation
on the gallows-tree for the sins of man.
He redeemed us, and gave us life,
a heavenly home. Hope was renewed
with dignity and with joy for those who suffered burning there.
150 The Son was victorious in that undertaking,Click for footnote Click for translation
powerful and successful, when he came with the multitudes,
a troop of souls, into God's kingdom,
the one Ruler almighty, to the delight of angels
and all the saints who were in heaven before,
155 who dwelled in glory, when their Ruler came, Click for translation
almighty God, to where his native land was.
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14-09-2014, 07:33 AM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
BB, I have to say you are one of the most narrow minded thinkers on this site. You have not once addressed the points that Ralph Ellis raises which singles you out as a dogmatist just like the people you constantly attack. It may be possible to get away with insulting people for their views on an internet forum, a medium famous for mindlessness and bullying, but it doesn't wash in the real world or academia to suggest that you can comment on a position when you haven't even read the book.

There's no record of any gospel mentioning Jesus before 67 AD in any work I have ever read. Just surmises and "suggestions". So, within 30 years or so people were being persecuted in the name of this person who they, according to some on this forum, think was a complete "myth". The NT is undoubtedly a ficionalization so how on earth can any one focus on the date of it's supposed setting as being any more true than the miracles in it. It's like saying that the kid JK Rowling based Harry Potter on couldn't possibly have been a neighbour's child because the book was set 30 years earlier. If you can't deal with this particular issues, god knows how you are gong to get through a dissertation.

You know there were characters called Jesus of Gamala and Izates and you know their histories are similar and bear resemblances to Jesus. Suck it up big boy and deal with it.
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14-09-2014, 07:42 AM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
(14-09-2014 07:33 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  BB, I have to say you are one of the most narrow minded thinkers on this site. You have not once addressed the points that Ralph Ellis raises which singles you out as a dogmatist just like the people you constantly attack. It may be possible to get away with insulting people for their views on an internet forum, a medium famous for mindlessness and bullying, but it doesn't wash in the real world or academia to suggest that you can comment on a position when you haven't even read the book.

There's no record of any gospel mentioning Jesus before 67 AD in any work I have ever read. Just surmises and "suggestions". So, within 30 years or so people were being persecuted in the name of this person who they, according to some on this forum, think was a complete "myth". The NT is undoubtedly a ficionalization so how on earth can any one focus on the date of it's supposed setting as being any more true than the miracles in it. It's like saying that the kid JK Rowling based Harry Potter on couldn't possibly have been a neighbour's child because the book was set 30 years earlier. If you can't deal with this particular issues, god knows how you are gong to get through a dissertation.

You know there were characters called Jesus of Gamala and Izates and you know their histories are similar and bear resemblances to Jesus. Suck it up big boy and deal with it.

Ralph Ellis is not credible and his 'points' need no answering.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-09-2014, 07:51 AM
RE: The great josephus interpolation
...and, what do you say about oral history. Mankind got by without writing for millenia and almost no one read or wrote 2000 years ago. How do you account for the holus bolus wholesale acknowlegement without question that Jesus was a real person by people who hadn't read the NT or any gospel?

It's only recently that a few people question the existence of a real person behind the story of Jesus. The more plausible, by many magnitudes, explanation is that it is just the NT which deliberately confuses dates and events than that everyone who accepted he did exist has just been "buffaloed".
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