The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
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20-11-2015, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2015 10:49 AM by yakherder.)
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
How do you tell good guys from bad guys?

A fairly well written blog article. Not just for gun nuts, either. A good read whether you'd be the one hiding under a table or rushing the bad guy in a hypothetical violent situation. Easier to read on the page than on my /quote here.

Quote: “Luckily we made the choice not to get involved We were quite a distance away from the building where this was happening. And we could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was, their response time, they wouldn’t know who we were. And if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.” — John Parker, armed student during recent Umpqua Community College Campus shooting

I have a pretty diverse group of friends. When there is a mass murder like the one in Umpqua Community College my Facebook feed has all sorts of pro- and anti-gun stuff.

Lately, some people that used to be anti-gun have started asking a few questions about armed citizen first responders. I think they’re getting the point that no matter how quickly law enforcement can react, there is a potential for an armed citizen to intervene.

The questions are starting to gravitate more to “how would this work?” instead of “how can we ban everything with a pointy end?”

This [is] one of my concerns with concealed and open carry by ordinary citizens. In the event of an emergency, how do you tell the good guys from the bad guys? — a non-shooting friend of mine

If you’ve read “Facing the Active Shooter” by CR Williams (my review) or “Killing the Active Shooter” by Gabe Suarez (my review) you may already know some the ways to tell.

Here some additional thoughts.
Participant Categories

I believe there are five categories of individuals in an active murderer situation:

The Attacker(s) — both “Facing the Active Shooter” and “Killing the Active Shooter” describe typical active shooter / murderer profiles, including the difference between a crazy person and a terrorist with a mission. They may not be acting alone.

The Victims — these are people who have no concept of fighting, are trying to escape, hide, or bargain.

The Fighters — they may or may not be carrying a weapon, may be using improvised weapons, may counter-attack in groups with or without weapons (e.g., three Americans who attacked the terrorist in France)

The Police — may be in uniform or plainsclothes (such as the off-duty officer who assisted uniformed police in the Salt Lake City Trolley Square assault)

You — you’re you! If you’re reading this blog, hopefully you’ve had a lot of fight-focused training, as well as training on how to de-escalate a confrontation, handle irate / scared bystanders, administer trauma care, and have the weapons and equipment to take a risk.
Identifying Participants

These are not hard and fast rules, and some of this is taken from the two books (credit to them, I’m just a messenger). You may have to rely on multiple observations in order to make a decision.
The attacker(s)

Point guns at people who look afraid or who are trying to get away. If someone points a gun at a little kid, they’re a bad guy.
They are more likely to have a long gun of some kind, but may be armed with just a handgun.
Be aware there are Attackers that are armed with edged weapons, but we don’t see that as often in the US.
May be displaying their weapons in a way to generate the maximum amount of fear. Don’t expect Attackers to move with weapons in a Low Ready, Ready, or Sul position.
May attempt to herd Victims where they can be controlled / executed. Another Victim or Fighter may attempt to lead others to safety. You may be able to differentiate between these two categories by position and reaction. If the person is in the back, yelling and people and threatening them with a weapon, they may be an Attacker. If the person with a weapon is in front and people are following them, they are probably a Fighter.
May be wearing tactical gear, such as a chest rig or plate carrier.

The victims

They’re running around, screaming, perhaps clinging onto you or others, or begging for help.
Expect them to run in packs / groups. For examples please watch the excellent documentary Terror at the Mall (my review), on the Westgate Mall terrorist attack in Kenya.
Will be helping injured people.
May be carrying / leading people, usually children (e.g., a man holding a kid by the hand and running is probably a Victim, not an Attacker)

The fighters

According to Suarez, Williams, John Farnam, Erik Pakieser, and others, expect anyone running towards gunfire to be either a Fighter or another Attacker.
If they’re unarmed and running towards fighting, probably a good guy.
This may seem obvious, but Fighters won’t indiscriminately shoot people.
Fighters will probably not be carrying a PDW or SBR.
Fighters might be barricaded in a room, waiting for help. This was the case of John Parker in Oregon. Be careful entering a room with a weapon in your hand.
May (hopefully) use cover and concealment. Do not expect an Attacker to do this unless someone has started shooting back.
If several people are struggling with one person on the ground, that group is probably made up of Fighters and not Attackers. They may be trying to wrestle a weapon away from an Attacker or subdue them.

The police

Uniformed officers should be easy to identify. There has been some concern that attackers might dress up as police officers, but I am not sure if we’ve ever seen an incident where this has happened.
Identify plainsclothes officers by their dress and demeanor. Unless they’re an undercover narcotics officer (thinking of you, Craig “SouthNarc” Douglas), they will be clean-cut, well dressed, and wearing traditional Western attire. They may be moving towards the fight, interacting with Victims, checking on the wounded.
May (hopefully) use cover and concealment. Do not expect an Attacker to do this unless someone has started shooting back.

The First Step of the OODA Loop

The OODA Loop consists of four steps: Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. In the process of identifying who’s who, the critical step is Observe.

I do not think it is wise to challenge an Attacker. However, you may want to issue a challenge if you aren’t sure who you’re dealing with.

Please watch Terror at the Mall, and read about other mass shootings. Particularly study the motivations of the Attacker(s), and how they interact with Victims.

Learning about Victim and Attacker behavior may help you distinguish an armed Fighter from and Attacker.

Observe comes before Act.
No guarantees

There is no guarantee that these attributes will result in a correct identification. However, it is important to think about this topic ahead of time. Please discuss this concept with qualified instructors and your fight-focused trained peers.

Engage in force on force or scenario-based training that makes you identify different categories of people. I misidentified an individual during active shooter Force on Force training. Understand that this training is not “real life,” and that actors will be mimicking what they know about the category they are portraying. This may or may not match the situation you’re in.

For most people reading this, you are not required to act during an active shooter situation. Every action carries risk, and it is up to you to determine what kind of risks you are willing to take.

'Murican Canadian
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20-11-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
Yeah -- the bad guys are almost always "dressed for the occasion" - and have their weapons deployed - fingers on the trigger.........

If he's wearing body armor - and isn't a cop -- shoot the fuck, and keep shooting till he quits moving......

.......................................

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20-11-2015, 03:31 PM
The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
What's weird is that I've rarely fired a weapon. Yet with them, toy guns, pricing guns, etc. I always rest my finger off the trigger. It just feels right.

Someone I knew who believed in reincarnation said I was a soldier in a past life. Smile
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20-11-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(20-11-2015 03:31 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  What's weird is that I've rarely fired a weapon. Yet with them, toy guns, pricing guns, etc. I always rest my finger off the trigger. It just feels right.

Someone I knew who believed in reincarnation said I was a soldier in a past life. Smile

Keeping your finger on the trigger buys you trouble - it is dangerous.
It no longer feels natural for me as I have practiced keeping my trigger finger alongside and above the trigger.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-11-2015, 06:26 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
It was taught to me from a young age. Even with my first bb gun, bad trigger discipline would earn me an ass whooping. By the time I was given my first real gun, it was already instinct.

'Murican Canadian
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23-11-2015, 05:49 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
Took the new Sig to the range today. It shoots pretty good, but kicks like a mule which isn't surprising in a 25 oz .45 ACP. I am going to get a new lower frame with a smaller grip for it though. The one it came with is a little big for me.

[Image: Sig%20Saur%20P320-45%20a_zpso5c4o42c.jpg]

I also took the new Savage Mark II and the 10/22. It is the first time the Savage has been fired, and the 10/22 has a new scope so they both needed to be zeroed. The Savage shot well, but the 10/22 put 5 shots into a 5/16 of an inch hole at 25 yards. That's a .0885" center to center group. That mother fucker shoots good.

[Image: 1022%20Target_zpstfdpcgmw.jpg]

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23-11-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(23-11-2015 05:49 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Took the new Sig to the range today. It shoots pretty good, but kicks like a mule which isn't surprising in a 25 oz .45 ACP. I am going to get a new lower frame with a smaller grip for it though. The one it came with is a little big for me.

[Image: Sig%20Saur%20P320-45%20a_zpso5c4o42c.jpg]

Very interesting pistol system. If they would offer an alloy lower ... Consider

Oh, wait - that would be a P250.

Quote:I also took the new Savage Mark II and the 10/22. It is the first time the Savage has been fired, and the 10/22 has a new scope so they both needed to be zeroed. The Savage shot well, but the 10/22 put 5 shots into a 5/16 of an inch hole at 25 yards. That's a .0885" center to center group. That mother fucker shoots good.

[Image: 1022%20Target_zpstfdpcgmw.jpg]

I've had my 10-22 for 35 years - it was and is a tack-driver. Thumbsup

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-11-2015, 06:54 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(23-11-2015 06:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 05:49 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  Took the new Sig to the range today. It shoots pretty good, but kicks like a mule which isn't surprising in a 25 oz .45 ACP. I am going to get a new lower frame with a smaller grip for it though. The one it came with is a little big for me.

Very interesting pistol system. If they would offer an alloy lower ... Consider

Oh, wait - that would be a P250.

The Gen 2 P250 and P320 use the same lowers. The difference is the trigger mechanism (which is the serial numbered part) and the slide. The P250 has a classic hammer and the P320 is striker fired. I've got a 9mm P250 compact too, but it is a Gen 1 so the lowers aren't interchangable, but the newer ones are.

Here is the small grip compact lower I've already ordered for the P320. It fits the both models.

Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.

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23-11-2015, 07:06 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(23-11-2015 06:54 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(23-11-2015 06:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  Very interesting pistol system. If they would offer an alloy lower ... Consider

Oh, wait - that would be a P250.

The Gen 2 P250 and P320 use the same lowers. The difference is the trigger mechanism (which is the serial numbered part) and the slide. The P250 has a classic hammer and the P320 is striker fired. I've got a 9mm P250 compact too, but it is a Gen 1 so the lowers aren't interchangable, but the newer ones are.

Here is the small grip compact lower I've already ordered for the P320. It fits the both models.

My bad. I thought the P250 had an alloy frame.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-11-2015, 09:05 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
Thought you guys might find this interesting, a homeless guy in LA with sub-machineguns among other weapons. How are these even acquired?

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...story.html
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