The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
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25-11-2015, 09:11 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2015 09:17 PM by yakherder.)
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(25-11-2015 09:05 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Thought you guys might find this interesting, a homeless guy in LA with sub-machineguns among other weapons. How are these even acquired?

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...story.html
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Half that stuff looks like it was made in someone's basement. The mechanical components of a semi-auto weapon are actually more complex than those of typical fully automatic only weapons. Crude, fully automatic weapons like cheap sub-machine guns can be easily fabricated with basic shop tools.

Most semi-automatic guns are designed in such a way that with 5 minutes and a drill or file you can easily convert them to full auto. Crude silencers are quite easy to make as well.

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25-11-2015, 09:33 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(25-11-2015 09:11 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Half that stuff looks like it was made in someone's basement. The mechanical components of a semi-auto weapon are actually more complex than those of typical fully automatic only weapons. Crude, fully automatic weapons like cheap sub-machine guns can be easily fabricated with basic shop tools.

Most semi-automatic guns are designed in such a way that with 5 minutes and a drill or file you can easily convert them to full auto. Crude silencers are quite easy to make as well.

They didn’t look very sophisticated.

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25-11-2015, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2015 10:04 PM by yakherder.)
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(25-11-2015 09:33 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(25-11-2015 09:11 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Half that stuff looks like it was made in someone's basement. The mechanical components of a semi-auto weapon are actually more complex than those of typical fully automatic only weapons. Crude, fully automatic weapons like cheap sub-machine guns can be easily fabricated with basic shop tools.

Most semi-automatic guns are designed in such a way that with 5 minutes and a drill or file you can easily convert them to full auto. Crude silencers are quite easy to make as well.

They didn’t look very sophisticated.

Pakistan has a fairly active AK-47 knockoff trade going on, and most of those are handmade in peoples' personal home workshops. I'm pretty sure the AK I brought back from Iraq is one of those, as it's pretty much a piece of shit I keep for sentimental value Tongue It does fire, however. They are generally of inferior quality to the real, factory produced ones, but much higher quality than what this guy had.

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28-11-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(20-11-2015 10:42 AM)yakherder Wrote:  How do you tell good guys from bad guys?

A fairly well written blog article. Not just for gun nuts, either. A good read whether you'd be the one hiding under a table or rushing the bad guy in a hypothetical violent situation. Easier to read on the page than on my /quote here.

Quote: “Luckily we made the choice not to get involved We were quite a distance away from the building where this was happening. And we could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was, their response time, they wouldn’t know who we were. And if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.” — John Parker, armed student during recent Umpqua Community College Campus shooting

I have a pretty diverse group of friends. When there is a mass murder like the one in Umpqua Community College my Facebook feed has all sorts of pro- and anti-gun stuff.

Lately, some people that used to be anti-gun have started asking a few questions about armed citizen first responders. I think they’re getting the point that no matter how quickly law enforcement can react, there is a potential for an armed citizen to intervene.

The questions are starting to gravitate more to “how would this work?” instead of “how can we ban everything with a pointy end?”

This [is] one of my concerns with concealed and open carry by ordinary citizens. In the event of an emergency, how do you tell the good guys from the bad guys? — a non-shooting friend of mine

If you’ve read “Facing the Active Shooter” by CR Williams (my review) or “Killing the Active Shooter” by Gabe Suarez (my review) you may already know some the ways to tell.

Here some additional thoughts.
Participant Categories

I believe there are five categories of individuals in an active murderer situation:

The Attacker(s) — both “Facing the Active Shooter” and “Killing the Active Shooter” describe typical active shooter / murderer profiles, including the difference between a crazy person and a terrorist with a mission. They may not be acting alone.

The Victims — these are people who have no concept of fighting, are trying to escape, hide, or bargain.

The Fighters — they may or may not be carrying a weapon, may be using improvised weapons, may counter-attack in groups with or without weapons (e.g., three Americans who attacked the terrorist in France)

The Police — may be in uniform or plainsclothes (such as the off-duty officer who assisted uniformed police in the Salt Lake City Trolley Square assault)

You — you’re you! If you’re reading this blog, hopefully you’ve had a lot of fight-focused training, as well as training on how to de-escalate a confrontation, handle irate / scared bystanders, administer trauma care, and have the weapons and equipment to take a risk.
Identifying Participants

These are not hard and fast rules, and some of this is taken from the two books (credit to them, I’m just a messenger). You may have to rely on multiple observations in order to make a decision.
The attacker(s)

Point guns at people who look afraid or who are trying to get away. If someone points a gun at a little kid, they’re a bad guy.
They are more likely to have a long gun of some kind, but may be armed with just a handgun.
Be aware there are Attackers that are armed with edged weapons, but we don’t see that as often in the US.
May be displaying their weapons in a way to generate the maximum amount of fear. Don’t expect Attackers to move with weapons in a Low Ready, Ready, or Sul position.
May attempt to herd Victims where they can be controlled / executed. Another Victim or Fighter may attempt to lead others to safety. You may be able to differentiate between these two categories by position and reaction. If the person is in the back, yelling and people and threatening them with a weapon, they may be an Attacker. If the person with a weapon is in front and people are following them, they are probably a Fighter.
May be wearing tactical gear, such as a chest rig or plate carrier.

The victims

They’re running around, screaming, perhaps clinging onto you or others, or begging for help.
Expect them to run in packs / groups. For examples please watch the excellent documentary Terror at the Mall (my review), on the Westgate Mall terrorist attack in Kenya.
Will be helping injured people.
May be carrying / leading people, usually children (e.g., a man holding a kid by the hand and running is probably a Victim, not an Attacker)

The fighters

According to Suarez, Williams, John Farnam, Erik Pakieser, and others, expect anyone running towards gunfire to be either a Fighter or another Attacker.
If they’re unarmed and running towards fighting, probably a good guy.
This may seem obvious, but Fighters won’t indiscriminately shoot people.
Fighters will probably not be carrying a PDW or SBR.
Fighters might be barricaded in a room, waiting for help. This was the case of John Parker in Oregon. Be careful entering a room with a weapon in your hand.
May (hopefully) use cover and concealment. Do not expect an Attacker to do this unless someone has started shooting back.
If several people are struggling with one person on the ground, that group is probably made up of Fighters and not Attackers. They may be trying to wrestle a weapon away from an Attacker or subdue them.

The police

Uniformed officers should be easy to identify. There has been some concern that attackers might dress up as police officers, but I am not sure if we’ve ever seen an incident where this has happened.
Identify plainsclothes officers by their dress and demeanor. Unless they’re an undercover narcotics officer (thinking of you, Craig “SouthNarc” Douglas), they will be clean-cut, well dressed, and wearing traditional Western attire. They may be moving towards the fight, interacting with Victims, checking on the wounded.
May (hopefully) use cover and concealment. Do not expect an Attacker to do this unless someone has started shooting back.

The First Step of the OODA Loop

The OODA Loop consists of four steps: Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. In the process of identifying who’s who, the critical step is Observe.

I do not think it is wise to challenge an Attacker. However, you may want to issue a challenge if you aren’t sure who you’re dealing with.

Please watch Terror at the Mall, and read about other mass shootings. Particularly study the motivations of the Attacker(s), and how they interact with Victims.

Learning about Victim and Attacker behavior may help you distinguish an armed Fighter from and Attacker.

Observe comes before Act.
No guarantees

There is no guarantee that these attributes will result in a correct identification. However, it is important to think about this topic ahead of time. Please discuss this concept with qualified instructors and your fight-focused trained peers.

Engage in force on force or scenario-based training that makes you identify different categories of people. I misidentified an individual during active shooter Force on Force training. Understand that this training is not “real life,” and that actors will be mimicking what they know about the category they are portraying. This may or may not match the situation you’re in.

For most people reading this, you are not required to act during an active shooter situation. Every action carries risk, and it is up to you to determine what kind of risks you are willing to take.


Hmmm...I dunno what to think. At first, I was going to say something like: In a shitty situation, you usually don't have enough time to analyze all these factors on a conscious level, it's a "gut" thing, but then I realized, maybe my "gut" it just my training kicking in. Consider Either way, when faced with making a friend v. foe decision in the past I definitely felt uneasy and prepared myself ahead of time. On the flip side of that, sometimes my radar was 'off', and someone who made me uneasy didn't want to kill me (to my knowledge).

Foes are trying to hide something - their body language, their dress, their face. They are "off" and you pick up on it. Of course, if they aren't trying to hide something you can hopefully figure out he doesn't want to buy you a drink. E.g, if someone puts the business end of a pistol toward your head, you are unlikely to go for ice cream later that day. Big Grin

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28-11-2015, 07:51 AM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(28-11-2015 07:39 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(20-11-2015 10:42 AM)yakherder Wrote:  How do you tell good guys from bad guys?

A fairly well written blog article. Not just for gun nuts, either. A good read whether you'd be the one hiding under a table or rushing the bad guy in a hypothetical violent situation. Easier to read on the page than on my /quote here.


Hmmm...I dunno what to think. At first, I was going to say something like: In a shitty situation, you usually don't have enough time to analyze all these factors on a conscious level, it's a "gut" thing, but then I realized, maybe my "gut" it just my training kicking in. Consider Either way, when faced with making a friend v. foe decision in the past I definitely felt uneasy and prepared myself ahead of time. On the flip side of that, sometimes my radar was 'off', and someone who made me uneasy didn't want to kill me (to my knowledge).

Foes are trying to hide something - their body language, their dress, their face. They are "off" and you pick up on it. Of course, if they aren't trying to hide something you can hopefully figure out he doesn't want to buy you a drink. E.g, if someone puts the business end of a pistol toward your head, you are unlikely to go for ice cream later that day. Big Grin

That's completely true. Any rational concept, including threat identification, should be drilled into instinct before the real thing happens, or it won't be too useful. What I'd take from articles like this is simply new things to incorporate into my drills.

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29-11-2015, 11:19 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(28-11-2015 07:51 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(28-11-2015 07:39 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Hmmm...I dunno what to think. At first, I was going to say something like: In a shitty situation, you usually don't have enough time to analyze all these factors on a conscious level, it's a "gut" thing, but then I realized, maybe my "gut" it just my training kicking in. Consider Either way, when faced with making a friend v. foe decision in the past I definitely felt uneasy and prepared myself ahead of time. On the flip side of that, sometimes my radar was 'off', and someone who made me uneasy didn't want to kill me (to my knowledge).

Foes are trying to hide something - their body language, their dress, their face. They are "off" and you pick up on it. Of course, if they aren't trying to hide something you can hopefully figure out he doesn't want to buy you a drink. E.g, if someone puts the business end of a pistol toward your head, you are unlikely to go for ice cream later that day. Big Grin

That's completely true. Any rational concept, including threat identification, should be drilled into instinct before the real thing happens, or it won't be too useful. What I'd take from articles like this is simply new things to incorporate into my drills.

How?

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This is the type of dumb joke that I doubt many people other than myself would crack a smile at. That's enough for me. Tongue

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17-12-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
So I'm in the market for another single stack subcompact 9mm. I've already got a Ruger LC9. It runs well, shoots straight and has fairly good ergonomics, but the tolerances are so loose the slide literally rattles in the frame. You can hear it rattle when I walk even in a very snug holster designed for the gun.

I've got the choices narrowed down to Glock G43, Springfield XDs 3.3 or a Smith & Wesson M&P Shield. They all get good reviews from most. The Shield is the least expensive, but I haven't been able to handle one because no one around her has any. I can take home a G43 or XDs for the same cost. Anybody got one? Thoughts?

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17-12-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(17-12-2015 03:44 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  So I'm in the market for another single stack subcompact 9mm. I've already got a Ruger LC9. It runs well, shoots straight and has fairly good ergonomics, but the tolerances are so loose the slide literally rattles in the frame. You can hear it rattle when I walk even in a very snug holster designed for the gun.

I've got the choices narrowed down to Glock G43, Springfield XDs 3.3 or a Smith & Wesson M&P Shield. They all get good reviews from most. The Shield is the least expensive, but I haven't been able to handle one because no one around her has any. I can take home a G43 or XDs for the same cost. Anybody got one? Thoughts?

Sig Sauer P938. It is well-made and accurate.

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17-12-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
I looked at he 938 and love the 1911 like design and operation, but I'm looking to go another direction than cocked and locked with a manual safety.

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17-12-2015, 05:38 PM
RE: The gun thread. Enthusiasts only.
(17-12-2015 04:26 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  I looked at he 938 and love the 1911 like design and operation, but I'm looking to go another direction than cocked and locked with a manual safety.


That's a good point; I've never been comfortable with cocked and locked carry - that's why I never got a 1911.

However, I carry it without one in the chamber.

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