The hidden attack on whiteness
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13-10-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(13-10-2014 02:29 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(12-10-2014 09:40 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  And some white cops shoot black kids for no reason. What's your point? People of all races can experience racism. At this point, who are you arguing with?

Let's review the order of events here:

1) I assert that pop-culture draws associations between whiteness and racism.
2) You assert that "nobody" is saying all white people are racists.
3) I call this assertion false - which it is.
4) You provide the nonsensical response: "And some white cops shoot black kids for no reason"

Your response here does absolutely nothing to invalidate my initial assertion. Some white cops shoot black kids for no reason, just like some black teenagers commit crime for no reason. In each case, skin colour is not a causal determinant of the crime being committed... Understand so far?... So in each case, it is wrong for the media to draw stereotypes between a racial group and a crime.

My point is simply that it is just as wrong for pop-culture to frame racism as "white" as it is for it to frame crime as "black". Whether this outcome is intentional or not is irrelevant.

(12-10-2014 09:40 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  When did I say anything even remotely similar? Again, who are you arguing with?

My point here (which again you seem to have missed) is as follows:

1) You asserted "We don't blame all muslims because the extremest are a fringe minority"
2) My response pointed out that your assertion is false because clearly Muslims do experience hate crimes against them.

So who is the "We" you are referring to when you say "We dont blame Muslims"?? If it refers to everybody, then your assertion is false. I have personally witnessed many people blaming all muslims for terrorism... If it refers to just you, then you have made the logical fallacy of thinking that because you are a good person, everybody else must be too.

(12-10-2014 09:40 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  How are all white people being stereotyped as racist in the media? You probably want to back up and make a case for that first.

First of all - what do you mean "all white people"... How can the media stereotype only some white people? What a weird comment.

Secondly, I have made a case for it already. You probably just haven't read through all my posts in this thread... It's interesting though that we suddenly have to support reports of racism with data when it's white racism. This doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for any other types of racism. Kinda highlights my OP to be honest.

You have to support claims of any kind with evidence. That is how intelligent dialogue works. If I say "X is true!" and you say "how do you know?", if I respond with "I don't have to tell you how I know" you are not likely to take me seriously.

When I said nobody is blaming all Muslims I meant present company. I implied that anybody who understand the difference between Muslims and Islamic extremest would not be inclined to blame all Muslims for terrorism. It is absolutely true that some Muslims, and indeed people who look even remotely like they might be Muslim, has been unfairly persecuted in the united states.

I don't see any evidence of white persecution in the United States, either in the media, as a cultural byproduct, or institutionally. I don't think anyone, meaning constituting such a majority as to be practically unanimous, is claiming all white people are racists, or blaming all white people for racism; either in the US or anywhere else for that matter. I am sure you can appreciate that, compared to individuals who have experienced legitimate racism, someone might find the notion of "reverse racism" to be both ridiculous and offensive.
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14-10-2014, 03:23 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 07:29 AM by Spade=Spade.)
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(13-10-2014 02:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You have to support claims of any kind with evidence. That is how intelligent dialogue works. If I say "X is true!" and you say "how do you know?", if I respond with "I don't have to tell you how I know" you are not likely to take me seriously.

At no point did I say "I don't have to tell you how I know". What I did say was that I have already backed up the assertion of white racism and that you have probably not read through all my posts in this thread (feel free to read my reply to you again)....

Firstly, here is a study I happen to be aware of (I posted this earlier in the thread). Sam Harris discusses this in The Moral Landscape and it investigates racial biases between people who self-identify as liberals and those who self-identify as conservatives. Below is the paragraph in question, but if you want a link to the full page, it is here: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/...man-values

In a recent study of moral reasoning, subjects were asked to judge whether it was morally correct to sacrifice the life of one person to save one hundred, while being given subtle clues as to the races of the people involved. Conservatives proved less biased by race than liberals and, therefore, more even-handed. It turns out that liberals were very eager to sacrifice a white person to save one hundred non-whites, but not the other way around, all the while maintaining that considerations of race had not entered into their thinking. Observations of this sort are useful in revealing the biasing effect of ideology—even the ideology of fairness.

This study, and many others like it, show that white racism can exist.

But there is a bigger point here.

You demand evidence with the cliché comment of "You have to support claims of any kind with evidence". Whilst this is true, some things are common knowledge and shouldn't slow down our discourse with constant demands for data. To illustrate this principle, if I assert that racism exists and you demanded evidence, our discussion would move from a political one to a more philosophical or scientific one. We know racism exists because we can define it and observe it. If you aren't sure whether racism exists, raise your hand now.... If we know racism exists, why then must I produce evidence to support my assertion that white racism exists? How is white racism different from any other kind of racism?? In what reality would it be possible for white racism to be impossible??

Get it?

As far as I'm concerned, the very fact that I must walk this tight-rope of data and evidence (which I have produced anyway) is testament to the double standard I complained about in my OP. Complaints of racism in our culture from any other members of humanity seem to get more empathy but complaints of white racism in our culture is viewed with skepticism and the complainant is often branded a racist as a knee-jerk reaction.... That is itself a racist component of our culture. That is the very essence of my thesis.


(13-10-2014 02:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  When I said nobody is blaming all Muslims I meant present company. I implied that anybody who understand the difference between Muslims and Islamic extremest would not be inclined to blame all Muslims for terrorism. It is absolutely true that some Muslims, and indeed people who look even remotely like they might be Muslim, has been unfairly persecuted in the united states.

So what you're effectively saying is that sensible people are not blaming all Muslims for terrorism and sensible people are not blaming all white people for racism etc... This is just a complete non-sequitur. Racism does not hinge on the actions of sensible people. Our debate in this avenue has essentially gone as follows:

1) I assert white stereotypes exist
2) You assert that sensible people don't blame all whites for racism.

1) I assert Muslims stereotypes exist
2) You assert that sensible people don't blame all Muslims for terrorism

Racism is actioned by people who we wouldn't consider sensible, so this entire point of yours is a complete non-sequitur and a waste of time.

(13-10-2014 02:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I don't see any evidence of white persecution in the United States, either in the media, as a cultural byproduct, or institutionally. I don't think anyone, meaning constituting such a majority as to be practically unanimous, is claiming all white people are racists, or blaming all white people for racism; either in the US or anywhere else for that matter. I am sure you can appreciate that, compared to individuals who have experienced legitimate racism, someone might find the notion of "reverse racism" to be both ridiculous and offensive.

With all due respect this is a particularly weak paragraph and does zilch to invalidate my OP.

1) Who cares what evidence you don't see? You also don't see evidence of the cup of coffee I'm drinking right now. Does that mean I am not drinking coffee?
2) You are optimistic if you think that there is a 'practically unanimous' consensus that whiteness is not to blame for racism.
3) My criticism was of culture, not people as I have made clear on multiple occasions.
4) The OP was not a tit-for-tat comparison. Again, this is something I made clear on several occasions. Saying that black racism (for example) is worse than white racism (or any other kind of racism for that mater) is a complete non-sequitur. Black racism does exist and I want to get rid of it as much as you do, but this does nothing to invalidate the notion that other forms of racism exist. It also doesn't mean we can't complain about other forms of racism. If anything the history of black racism should teach us how much misery racism can cause and we should thus seek to challenge our culture so as to safeguard all groups and nip any form of racism in the bud before it grows... What we absolutely should not say is: "black racism was awful. Now it's white people's turn"

5) Your use of the term "reverse racism" pretty much proves my OP... That term (freely used in our current culture) assumes that racism in its default form is white and that any forms of racism against whiteness are "reverse". Your unconscious use of this term is precisely what I am trying to bring to the surface.
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14-10-2014, 08:48 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(14-10-2014 03:23 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(13-10-2014 02:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You have to support claims of any kind with evidence. That is how intelligent dialogue works. If I say "X is true!" and you say "how do you know?", if I respond with "I don't have to tell you how I know" you are not likely to take me seriously.

At no point did I say "I don't have to tell you how I know". What I did say was that I have already backed up the assertion of white racism and that you have probably not read through all my posts in this thread (feel free to read my reply to you again)....

Firstly, here is a study I happen to be aware of (I posted this earlier in the thread). Sam Harris discusses this in The Moral Landscape and it investigates racial biases between people who self-identify as liberals and those who self-identify as conservatives. Below is the paragraph in question, but if you want a link to the full page, it is here: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/...man-values

In a recent study of moral reasoning, subjects were asked to judge whether it was morally correct to sacrifice the life of one person to save one hundred, while being given subtle clues as to the races of the people involved. Conservatives proved less biased by race than liberals and, therefore, more even-handed. It turns out that liberals were very eager to sacrifice a white person to save one hundred non-whites, but not the other way around, all the while maintaining that considerations of race had not entered into their thinking. Observations of this sort are useful in revealing the biasing effect of ideology—even the ideology of fairness.

This study, and many others like it, show that white racism can exist.

But there is a bigger point here.

You demand evidence with the cliché comment of "You have to support claims of any kind with evidence". Whilst this is true, some things are common knowledge and shouldn't slow down our discourse with constant demands for data. To illustrate this principle, if I assert that racism exists and you demanded evidence, our discussion would move from a political one to a more philosophical or scientific one. We know racism exists because we can define it and observe it. If you aren't sure whether racism exists, raise your hand now.... If we know racism exists, why then must I produce evidence to support my assertion that white racism exists? How is white racism different from any other kind of racism?? In what reality would it be possible for white racism to be impossible??

Get it?

As far as I'm concerned, the very fact that I must walk this tight-rope of data and evidence (which I have produced anyway) is testament to the double standard I complained about in my OP. Complaints of racism in our culture from any other members of humanity seem to get more empathy but complaints of white racism in our culture is viewed with skepticism and the complainant is often branded a racist as a knee-jerk reaction.... That is itself a racist component of our culture. That is the very essence of my thesis.


(13-10-2014 02:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  When I said nobody is blaming all Muslims I meant present company. I implied that anybody who understand the difference between Muslims and Islamic extremest would not be inclined to blame all Muslims for terrorism. It is absolutely true that some Muslims, and indeed people who look even remotely like they might be Muslim, has been unfairly persecuted in the united states.

So what you're effectively saying is that sensible people are not blaming all Muslims for terrorism and sensible people are not blaming all white people for racism etc... This is just a complete non-sequitur. Racism does not hinge on the actions of sensible people. Our debate in this avenue has essentially gone as follows:

1) I assert white stereotypes exist
2) You assert that sensible people don't blame all whites for racism.

1) I assert Muslims stereotypes exist
2) You assert that sensible people don't blame all Muslims for terrorism

Racism is actioned by people who we wouldn't consider sensible, so this entire point of yours is a complete non-sequitur and a waste of time.

(13-10-2014 02:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I don't see any evidence of white persecution in the United States, either in the media, as a cultural byproduct, or institutionally. I don't think anyone, meaning constituting such a majority as to be practically unanimous, is claiming all white people are racists, or blaming all white people for racism; either in the US or anywhere else for that matter. I am sure you can appreciate that, compared to individuals who have experienced legitimate racism, someone might find the notion of "reverse racism" to be both ridiculous and offensive.

With all due respect this is a particularly weak paragraph and does zilch to invalidate my OP.

1) Who cares what evidence you don't see? You also don't see evidence of the cup of coffee I'm drinking right now. Does that mean I am not drinking coffee?
2) You are optimistic if you think that there is a 'practically unanimous' consensus that whiteness is not to blame for racism.
3) My criticism was of culture, not people as I have made clear on multiple occasions.
4) The OP was not a tit-for-tat comparison. Again, this is something I made clear on several occasions. Saying that black racism (for example) is worse than white racism (or any other kind of racism for that mater) is a complete non-sequitur. Black racism does exist and I want to get rid of it as much as you do, but this does nothing to invalidate the notion that other forms of racism exist. It also doesn't mean we can't complain about other forms of racism. If anything the history of black racism should teach us how much misery racism can cause and we should thus seek to challenge our culture so as to safeguard all groups and nip any form of racism in the bud before it grows... What we absolutely should not say is: "black racism was awful. Now it's white people's turn"

5) Your use of the term "reverse racism" pretty much proves my OP... That term (freely used in our current culture) assumes that racism in its default form is white and that any forms of racism against whiteness are "reverse". Your unconscious use of this term is precisely what I am trying to bring to the surface.

You have succeeded in being very unpleasant and condescending, but have done little to provide any evidence for your claims. The link you supplied in no way substantiates the instance of racism against whites in the United States. I don't claim that racism against whites does not exist, I claim that it is comparably insignificant in frequency and grievance compared to racism against any other ethnic group in the US. I see no evidence of a cultural back lash for racism in the past. You can misquote and misrepresent me as much as you like if it pleases you. An intelligent and progressive conversation is not possible until you produce data. To illustrate my point, evidence of racism:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c...f%20racism

A list of relevant and easy to understand factoids:
https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-fac...rimination

Something similar from a credible source would persuade me.
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14-10-2014, 08:56 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
XspadeX... It's again the point of you asserting X is because of racism in that study and in other concepts. But again, do you know the purpose of the inter rational, not exactly and there is other sensible ideals happening that wouldn't be considered racism against whites.

This goes back to the dominant majority power of the area. If you pick at people/a culture for being the dominant majority of those in power at this moment for being the dominant majority of these in power... is that racism?

How are you concluding it's one over the other happening, or do you value them as one in the same?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-10-2014, 10:13 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(14-10-2014 08:48 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You have succeeded in being very unpleasant and condescending, but have done little to provide any evidence for your claims. The link you supplied in no way substantiates the instance of racism against whites in the United States. I don't claim that racism against whites does not exist, I claim that it is comparably insignificant in frequency and grievance compared to racism against any other ethnic group in the US. I see no evidence of a cultural back lash for racism in the past. You can misquote and misrepresent me as much as you like if it pleases you. An intelligent and progressive conversation is not possible until you produce data. To illustrate my point, evidence of racism:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c...f%20racism

A list of relevant and easy to understand factoids:
https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-fac...rimination

Something similar from a credible source would persuade me.

Haha try play the ball, not the man. You may think me condescending, but who is to say I don't think the same of you? Perhaps reminding me that claims of "any kind" need to be back up by evidence could have been construed as condescending eh?

1) You claim I have done little to provide any evidence for my claims and then you quickly move on to the next sentence, perhaps thinking I will not notice that you have failed to show how (according to you) I have done little to back up my claims. I asserted white racism exists, you demanded evidence, I provided you with a study.... Or what were you demanding evidence for if not that??

2) You claim that your point throughout our exchange is that racism against whites is comparatively less significant than that against "all other ethnic groups" (care to back this claim up with data by the way?)... My response to this point is that it is a non-sequitur. It is irrelevant. You seem to think that there can be no complaints or discussion of racism until the group affected has reached comparatively more suffering than other groups.... That's like saying you can't report a crime because other people have experienced a worse crime.

3) One of your links takes us to a Google search for "evidence for racism". You can not seriously think this constitutes data or evidence.... Your 2nd link is better but only shows what we already knew, that black racism does exist... If you want me to provide you with evidence that white racism exists (which I have already done), then my question to you is why? Isn't it obvious that it does... Unless you want me to provide you with evidence of something else??

My points regarding culture as an engine of racism (rather than people) seem to be lost on you. The link you provided to the dosomething.org website provides statistics showing the differential treatment African Americans experience at the hands of police officers. The problem with this link insofar as this discussion is concerned is that it indicts people, not culture. In this case, police officers are to blame. My OP and this entire discussion has been about culture - a driver of behaviour. You seem to be looking at the outcome and saying "X is racist, but Y isn't racist". My OP takes a step back and says "cultural phenomenon X is racist and could lead to racist outcomes".

Lastly and perhaps most importantly, I notice you ignored my point about your use of the term "reverse racism". This point is precisely what I am talking about. You feel culturally permitted to use the term "reverse racism", even though this term assumes that racism is white by default and that racism against whites is when regular racism is "reversed". I don't criticise you for using this term, I criticise our culture which ordains that it is a righteous term. It is not. This point highlights my OP. This is an example (one of many) which shows the hidden components of our culture which frame racism as white.
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14-10-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(14-10-2014 08:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  XspadeX... It's again the point of you asserting X is because of racism in that study and in other concepts. But again, do you know the purpose of the inter rational, not exactly and there is other sensible ideals happening that wouldn't be considered racism against whites.

This goes back to the dominant majority power of the area. If you pick at people/a culture for being the dominant majority of those in power at this moment for being the dominant majority of these in power... is that racism?

How are you concluding it's one over the other happening, or do you value them as one in the same?

ClydeLee - I am not following your opening paragraph. Apologies. Could you rephrase?

Regarding your 2nd paragraph, you again seem to think whiteness is a homogeneous group. It is a simplistic view of society to say "whites are the dominant group, let's pick at whites". Like I mentioned before in our exchange, whites are like any other group - a bunch of individuals.

The notion of racial groups is actually not well defined in Science. What is the definition of a "white person"? Would a Greek person apply? How about Barack Obama? What about a really dark skinned Italian or a Turk or someone from Albania?... The truth is that compartmentalizing racial groups is a man-made construct. This makes it no less real insofar as racist behaviour is concerned, but when you suggest that picking at the dominant people is a good thing, I find it hard not to shake my head. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who you would probably call "white" who are either middle income, poor, homeless or even just activists and philanthropists... Suggestions of any kind that we should have contempt against a group because according to you they are the "dominant people" is ludicrous as far as I'm concerned.

A good thought-experiment is always this... Imagine an ideal society in which everyone is happy and living in peace... Now look at our current society and ask how you get from A to B... If you really think that contempt is a successful component of an ideal society, then I would simply disagree and encourage you to think of more peaceful ways to make the world a better place.
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14-10-2014, 12:36 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
Spade,

This isn't rocket science. When you have a white-dominated culture in which some of them, particularly people in a position of power, exemplify racism, and measures are enacted to counter the racism, guess what? The whites who are racist are going to feel some of their "privilege" taken away. This is not racism against whites anymore than securing a building is discriminatory against thieves. Racism is unjust. It is right to take away the racist, unearned, unjust "privileges". Measures designed to eliminate racism and racial inequality are just.

You have claimed that people tend to blame whites for racism. I disagree. The only places where that may be true is in white-dominated cultures. If, for example, we are talking about China, I doubt anyone would claim that racism there is coming only from whites or even mostly from whites. When racism actually is blamed on whites, it's also typically accurate within the culture that is the target of the blame. That doesn't mean that nobody besides whites can be racist even in a white-dominated society. But it means the real problem is with the whites in those societies.

I find your attempt to differentiate culture from people as the source of racism to be completely irrelevant. Guess where cultures come from? People...

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this thread? Even if there is any accuracy at all in your theme (and I don't agree that there is), it's like complaining about a scratch in a hospital full of dying people. It just seems completely ridiculous to the point of equaling a whining child. Except this one, if taken seriously, can actually do harm. Dodgy

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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14-10-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
Ok. It's a pissing contest then... Let's get started I suppose.

(14-10-2014 10:13 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 08:48 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You have succeeded in being very unpleasant and condescending, but have done little to provide any evidence for your claims. The link you supplied in no way substantiates the instance of racism against whites in the United States. I don't claim that racism against whites does not exist, I claim that it is comparably insignificant in frequency and grievance compared to racism against any other ethnic group in the US. I see no evidence of a cultural back lash for racism in the past. You can misquote and misrepresent me as much as you like if it pleases you. An intelligent and progressive conversation is not possible until you produce data. To illustrate my point, evidence of racism:

https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c...f%20racism

A list of relevant and easy to understand factoids:
https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-fac...rimination

Something similar from a credible source would persuade me.

Haha try play the ball, not the man. You may think me condescending, but who is to say I don't think the same of you? Perhaps reminding me that claims of "any kind" need to be back up by evidence could have been construed as condescending eh?

1) You claim I have done little to provide any evidence for my claims and then you quickly move on to the next sentence, perhaps thinking I will not notice that you have failed to show how (according to you) I have done little to back up my claims. I asserted white racism exists, you demanded evidence, I provided you with a study.... Or what were you demanding evidence for if not that??

I don't consider that to be a credible source on anything. His premise, his study, his conclusion, are all dubious and reeking of bias, but that is another topic for another time. What I want is compelling statistics that not only prove it is possible for whites to experience racism, but that whites are are experiencing racism. If it is half a tragic as you paint it out to be there should be many points of compelling data to measure it. If you cannot measure the impact of white racism then I am not going to be compelled to believe it is not a problem.

More over the point you have been stressing all long is that white people and racism are synonymous in our culture. You haven't provided evidence for this claim either. In my own experience as a white person I certainty do not feel the victim, so in an anecdotal way I have evidence against your conclusion. If you want me to take you seriously, you have to give me a good reason.
[/quote]

Quote:2) You claim that your point throughout our exchange is that racism against whites is comparatively less significant than that against "all other ethnic groups" (care to back this claim up with data by the way?)... My response to this point is that it is a non-sequitur. It is irrelevant. You seem to think that there can be no complaints or discussion of racism until the group affected has reached comparatively more suffering than other groups.... That's like saying you can't report a crime because other people have experienced a worse crime.

The absence of data supports my claim that whites are not significant vitims of racism. My argument is as follows:

If a group is a target of racism, there will be measurable effects of that racism
X is group targeted for racism
X will show measurable effects of racism

Speaking in general, whites make more money (beat out only by Asians), are well represented in government (by far), and well represented in academia (again losing only to Asians). Whites are the overwhelming majority in top position in fortune 500 companies, property ownership, and voter representation. If you want to make a case that whites are victims of institutional racism in america you have to make a strong case, because there is certainly evidence that they are not.

Quote:3) One of your links takes us to a Google search for "evidence for racism". You can not seriously think this constitutes data or evidence.... Your 2nd link is better but only shows what we already knew, that black racism does exist... If you want me to provide you with evidence that white racism exists (which I have already done), then my question to you is why? Isn't it obvious that it does... Unless you want me to provide you with evidence of something else??

The first link was meant only to be illustrative that, if you search for it, evidence of racism is ample. It is well studied and documented. If whites are victims of racism, there should be similar and equally compelling data for at, same as there is for racism against african americans and latinos.

I do want you to provide me with evidence of racism against whites. I have been saying this literally the whole time. What seems obvious to you is not at all obvious to me, to the point where I am willing to claim that it practically is none existent.

Quote:My points regarding culture as an engine of racism (rather than people) seem to be lost on you. The link you provided to the dosomething.org website provides statistics showing the differential treatment African Americans experience at the hands of police officers. The problem with this link insofar as this discussion is concerned is that it indicts people, not culture. In this case, police officers are to blame. My OP and this entire discussion has been about culture - a driver of behaviour. You seem to be looking at the outcome and saying "X is racist, but Y isn't racist". My OP takes a step back and says "cultural phenomenon X is racist and could lead to racist outcomes".

I understand full well how your 'study' could imply unequal treatment. The challenge for you is to build a bridge there. It is not enough to observe some particular behavior, you have to draw a casual link between the behavior and some outcome. You haven't yet done that, which I why I don't find your source credible to the topic at hand.

I can certainly appreciate how culture is the root cause of racism, considering culture encompasses nearly everything people collectively do and think. If whites do experience racism then it would manifest itself in our culture. You need to demonstrate that as well.

The reason why I find your study insufficient is because it measures the willingness of people to make pragmatic decisions where race is a factor. What was measured in this experiment is that people are willing to sacrifice the one man for ten when race is not a factor (ie when the sacrificed person was white), and where uncomfortable doing so when race was a factor (when the sacrificed person was not white). This doesn't mean that whites are victims of racism, this merely shows some of the social conditioning present in the test subjects. In the scenario where the sacrifice man was white race is not a factor; white is the de facto assumption and not meaningful in the weighing the consequences. When the sacrificed man is black race is a factor, because competing with the test subjects concern about optimizing the number of saved lives are competing concerns about racial injustice and fairness. Black is not the default assumption in our culture, and so the added detail gets more attention. This isn't evidence of racism, this is evidence that concerns among st liberals over racial justice are just as powerful as pragmatic motivators in this scenario. It demonstrates no more than this. It is insufficient evidence that there is a cultural contributor to racism against whites. It is for these reason that I reject your first source.

Quote:Lastly and perhaps most importantly, I notice you ignored my point about your use of the term "reverse racism". This point is precisely what I am talking about. You feel culturally permitted to use the term "reverse racism", even though this term assumes that racism is white by default and that racism against whites is when regular racism is "reversed". I don't criticise you for using this term, I criticise our culture which ordains that it is a righteous term. It is not. This point highlights my OP. This is an example (one of many) which shows the hidden components of our culture which frame racism as white.

The only thing I assume when I use the term "reverse racism" is that reverse racism doesn't exist. I used the term only as long a necessary to dismiss it.

In the united states when people here the word racism, immediate association is white racism. That makes sense, whites historically have been the primary perpetrators of racism in america. Whites are both the majority and the privileged race in america. Word association does not constitute discrimination. When someone says "acrobat" my first association is cirque du soleil, that doesn't mean all french men are acrobats or that I am generalizing acrobatics to all french people, it means that this is the context I am most familiar with when I think of acrobatics. For most american who learn about racism in the context of the slave trade, the civil rights movement, and crime data the association is with white racism against black peoples. In another part of the world racism would conjure images of something else. It is no more discriminator there then it is is here. If white people are victims of racism prove it, provide evidence of an inequality or some ill outcome that can be associated with racism.
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14-10-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(14-10-2014 12:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Spade,

This isn't rocket science. When you have a white-dominated culture in which some of them, particularly people in a position of power, exemplify racism, and measures are enacted to counter the racism, guess what? The whites who are racist are going to feel some of their "privilege" taken away. This is not racism against whites anymore than securing a building is discriminatory against thieves. Racism is unjust. It is right to take away the racist, unearned, unjust "privileges". Measures designed to eliminate racism and racial inequality are just.

You have claimed that people tend to blame whites for racism. I disagree. The only places where that may be true is in white-dominated cultures. If, for example, we are talking about China, I doubt anyone would claim that racism there is coming only from whites or even mostly from whites. When racism actually is blamed on whites, it's also typically accurate within the culture that is the target of the blame. That doesn't mean that nobody besides whites can be racist even in a white-dominated society. But it means the real problem is with the whites in those societies.

I find your attempt to differentiate culture from people as the source of racism to be completely irrelevant. Guess where cultures come from? People...

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this thread? Even if there is any accuracy at all in your theme (and I don't agree that there is), it's like complaining about a scratch in a hospital full of dying people. It just seems completely ridiculous to the point of equaling a whining child. Except this one, if taken seriously, can actually do harm. Dodgy

You have misunderstood my point.

1) Your first paragraph seeks to explain a particular brand of racism which you have chosen and which suits your argument. The righting or wrongs is something I explicitly condoned in the OP. So we are in complete agreement that addressing tangible areas of equality is a just undertaking... But tangible areas of equality are distinct from cultural nuances. My point is essentially this: cultural contempt for whiteness (whatever its cause in history may be) is not just. White people born today should not have to walk a political correct tightrope for the rest of their lives for the crimes of other people with the same skin colour... No group should inherit a negative outcome for the actions of others who shared their skin colour.

2) Your second paragraph demonstrates your misunderstanding of my OP and subsequent exchanges. I did not claim that people blame whites for racism. I claim that culture frames racism as white.. just like it frames terrorism as Muslim and crime as black. All of these stereotypes are wrong and all of them are worthy of discussion... You then assert that when whites are blamed for racism, it is typically accurate within that society. This point seems to imply you think there is a proportionate and rational correlation between contempt for whites and the racism they commit. I disagree with this. Racism is very often exacerbated by the effects of many other things - the media for example often creates stereotypes which then produces a more than proportional contempt. Consider how many black people have been unfairly harassed by the police or treated with contempt by people who associate them with crime. Would you tell them as you have told me that this contempt is typically accurate??

3) Your 3rd paragraph shows you don't understand why I have drawn the distinction between people and culture. A quick explanation is as follows... If you use the term "reverse racism" for example, you may not have consciously realised that it is actually a racist term. But because it is a culturally-approved term, you feel ok using it. Thus you are not a racist for using that term. It would't make sense for me to criticise you. Rather it is a component of our culture that must be addressed.

4) My point with this thread is to highlight the hidden components of pop-culture which negatively affect whiteness. You assert that this is potentially harmful. Would you mind explaining why complaints of white racism are harmful and not other forms of racism?? Or do you think that complaints of racism in general are harmful? Again, substantiate please.
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14-10-2014, 03:25 PM
Re: RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(14-10-2014 10:27 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 08:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  XspadeX... It's again the point of you asserting X is because of racism in that study and in other concepts. But again, do you know the purpose of the inter rational, not exactly and there is other sensible ideals happening that wouldn't be considered racism against whites.

This goes back to the dominant majority power of the area. If you pick at people/a culture for being the dominant majority of those in power at this moment for being the dominant majority of these in power... is that racism?

How are you concluding it's one over the other happening, or do you value them as one in the same?

ClydeLee - I am not following your opening paragraph. Apologies. Could you rephrase?

Regarding your 2nd paragraph, you again seem to think whiteness is a homogeneous group. It is a simplistic view of society to say "whites are the dominant group, let's pick at whites". Like I mentioned before in our exchange, whites are like any other group - a bunch of individuals.

The notion of racial groups is actually not well defined in Science. What is the definition of a "white person"? Would a Greek person apply? How about Barack Obama? What about a really dark skinned Italian or a Turk or someone from Albania?... The truth is that compartmentalizing racial groups is a man-made construct. This makes it no less real insofar as racist behaviour is concerned, but when you suggest that picking at the dominant people is a good thing, I find it hard not to shake my head. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who you would probably call "white" who are either middle income, poor, homeless or even just activists and philanthropists... Suggestions of any kind that we should have contempt against a group because according to you they are the "dominant people" is ludicrous as far as I'm concerned.

A good thought-experiment is always this... Imagine an ideal society in which everyone is happy and living in peace... Now look at our current society and ask how you get from A to B... If you really think that contempt is a successful component of an ideal society, then I would simply disagree and encourage you to think of more peaceful ways to make the world a better place.

I'm merely working off your terms... Exactly what makes you draw limiting factors by my use of white opposed to yourself? You seem fine with asserting what everyone else means in a way that's to your benefit.. That's typical behavior of trolls here.

All I was saying in the first part is how you were drawing conclusions from that data that's not directly distinctly there. You keep doing it to others posts too, its very disingenuous. And I already answered your little question toward the end, your use of inputting "contempt" into another persons position is more of that despicable troll-like behavior.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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