The hidden attack on whiteness
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15-10-2014, 03:50 AM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2014 03:55 AM by Spade=Spade.)
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 02:56 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Just remember folks, 'conspiracy' (or 'hidden' in this case) is the klaxon call of those who lack sufficient evidence for their preferred conclusions.

2 studies provided for an assertion which should't require any. Explain how this constitutes "lack of evidence"?

While you're at it, explain your earlier accusation that I was using "selective reading and interpretation".

The "hidden" part of my OP does not imply conscious intent - as I explained. "Hidden" simply means "overlooked". So for you to try manipulate my argument and paint it with the same brush as a conspiracy theory is disingenuous.
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15-10-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(14-10-2014 03:24 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  You have misunderstood my point.
No, but you have misunderstood mine.

(14-10-2014 03:24 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  1) Your first paragraph seeks to explain a particular brand of racism which you have chosen and which suits your argument. The righting or wrongs is something I explicitly condoned in the OP. So we are in complete agreement that addressing tangible areas of equality is a just undertaking... But tangible areas of equality are distinct from cultural nuances. My point is essentially this: cultural contempt for whiteness (whatever its cause in history may be) is not just. White people born today should not have to walk a political correct tightrope for the rest of their lives for the crimes of other people with the same skin colour... No group should inherit a negative outcome for the actions of others who shared their skin colour.

No, my first paragraph shows that what you are calling racism against whites isn't racism at all. And you have failed to demonstrate that any racism or "cultural contempt for whites" exists except in your imagination.

(14-10-2014 03:24 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  2) Your second paragraph demonstrates your misunderstanding of my OP and subsequent exchanges. I did not claim that people blame whites for racism. I claim that culture frames racism as white.. just like it frames terrorism as Muslim and crime as black. All of these stereotypes are wrong and all of them are worthy of discussion... You then assert that when whites are blamed for racism, it is typically accurate within that society. This point seems to imply you think there is a proportionate and rational correlation between contempt for whites and the racism they commit. I disagree with this. Racism is very often exacerbated by the effects of many other things - the media for example often creates stereotypes which then produces a more than proportional contempt. Consider how many black people have been unfairly harassed by the police or treated with contempt by people who associate them with crime. Would you tell them as you have told me that this contempt is typically accurate??

I don't see the difference between people blaming whites for racism and culture framing racism as white. Both indicate whites are responsible for racism. And yes, there are societies where that is primarily true. Again, that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. I mean here in the US, whites are primarily responsible for racism where it exists. And yet, there is some racism between blacks and hispanics too. And no, saying that the claim of primarily white racism is accurate in certain societies is not at all the same as saying there is "proportionate or rational correlation between contempt for whites and the racism they commit". That's like trying to equate who is responsible for an action with appropriateness of an action. It's apples and oranges. And how is saying that whites are primarily responsible for racism in some cultures at all the same as saying racism-based contempt for blacks is "accurate"? It isn't.

(14-10-2014 03:24 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  3) Your 3rd paragraph shows you don't understand why I have drawn the distinction between people and culture. A quick explanation is as follows... If you use the term "reverse racism" for example, you may not have consciously realised that it is actually a racist term. But because it is a culturally-approved term, you feel ok using it. Thus you are not a racist for using that term. It would't make sense for me to criticise you. Rather it is a component of our culture that must be addressed.

No, I understand just fine, but I find the distinction to be irrelevant. Without a doubt, culture contributes to racism and needs to be addressed in fixing racism. But, in order to address the culture, you need to address the people too. They are both part of the same problem. You can't fix one without fixing the other so the distinction is useless. Culture is established and developed by the people and the people continually engage and participate in the culture. They are inseparable.

(14-10-2014 03:24 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  4) My point with this thread is to highlight the hidden components of pop-culture which negatively affect whiteness. You assert that this is potentially harmful. Would you mind explaining why complaints of white racism are harmful and not other forms of racism?? Or do you think that complaints of racism in general are harmful? Again, substantiate please.

If you were passing out candy to 2 kids and you gave 10 pieces to one kid and 20 to another, there would be an unfair imbalance. If someone then came along and took 5 from the second kid and gave it to the first, they would both have 15. Now you might say the second kid is "negatively affected", but I would say the kid was unfairly positively affected to begin with and things were simply made right. The same is true with the arguments you are making for "negatively affecting whites". It's nonsense. And focusing on it detracts from focusing on the real problem.

Energy spent battling this "ghost" is energy not used battling the real racism. Furthermore, when people hear about someone staking a complaint over things like being excluded from the "people of color" group, it sounds like whining over nothing. Pretty soon, this becomes associated with the cause of battling real racism and some less educated people on the topic turn up their noses in disgust thinking "racism" is much ado about nothing.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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15-10-2014, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2014 10:07 AM by ClydeLee.)
Re: RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 02:22 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 10:13 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm literally using the words you have used prior.. to elaborate how your point sounds in contrast. I'm not saying whites are a homogeneous group any more or less than you are. You are entirely disingenuous to think otherwise because I am merely repeating your terms to equate to your discussion. You are calling my views, which are entirely using YOUR terms, simplistic when I use them, but not when you use them. The limited mental exploration here is very impressive. I wouldn't be discussing any of these points in an idealistically irrelevant point of race since it's a non-rational distinction, but I am not ignoring that it has a cultural understanding.

My ideal world, as explained to you pretty easily before, would not consist of a dominant force. And any noting of taking serious, a point of being in an ideal world is a juvenile thought. It would always require a state of constant effort to maintain.

Here's an idea I would say that would also be key for better communication in our real world.. not having people of your manner inferring some cynical meaning and intent behind other peoples common discussion. I'm not writing any of my literary of philosophical, very heavily metaphoric and dual meaning lingering texts, I'm trying to discuss with you on your terms... don't interpret them as loaded if you want to be seen as a sensible person.

Again.. to get closer to what I think you're off base with. It's a presumption it's a hidden agenda by you. You don't demonstrate any of this other than assertion.. and you flat out refute without reason why other peoples evaluations of this concept is wrong. You don't respond in an open manner, instead you manipulate others responses. It's just as valid to me that for one, this isn't a hidden approach in the culture, it's a growing cultural movement lead by intentional efforts of many to make people aware of social imbalance. That includes acknowledging racism as we call it goes across boundaries and that a unjust beneficial scenario shouldn't be accepted without merit.

You claim you are "literally "using the words I have used prior"? This is false.
You described whites as a "force" that should be "combated". Not me. Don't get sour when you get called out on such silly additions the conversation.

Wow, you're gonna be this dishonest and just go there? Those were merely filler with no extra meaning other to get to the point. You alone inferred some militaristic components to it. Its obviously not possible to add zero words to the discussion. All terms you've accused Me of using in a negative contexts are purely interpreted by you as that way.

If you think I have some meaning and agenda behind every word, you need lessons in communicating rationally. No wonder you see there's an "overlooked" "attack" on whiteness if you show an incapability to not attach an ulterior motive to all language choices.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-10-2014, 01:36 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 08:58 AM)Impulse Wrote:  No, my first paragraph shows that what you are calling racism against whites isn't racism at all. And you have failed to demonstrate that any racism or "cultural contempt for whites" exists except in your imagination.

Your exact words in your first paragraph were: "It is right to take away the racist, unearned, unjust privileges". You say this as if I said anything in my OP to the contrary. This is why I claim you don't understand my OP. You seem to think I disagree that inequality should be addressed.... This line from my OP highlights that I am all for dealing with inequality and redistributing "privileges": "By all means, let's address equality issues in other areas like economic empowerment, policing etc... But when it comes to our current culture, we absolutely have to be colour-blind".

Where your understanding of my OP falls short is (as you concede) you don't see the significance of the distinction between culture and people.

My point is essentially that there are components of our culture which stereotype whiteness as racist. These components are objectively racist. Moreover, they are hidden or overlooked. We are talking about culturally-accepted things within language, media, music, memes etc which frame whiteness in a negative light... One example is the culturally accepted term "reverse racism" which frames racism in its default form as white.... Another would be the collective noun "people of colour" which unites all peoples except for those with white skin. Why? How is this righteous?... More examples include lyrics in popular music (let me know if you want some quotes); or what about political correctness, which seems to be a behavioural tight-rope exclusively enforced on people who are considered white.... These examples and many others are examples of components to our culture which are objectively racist against whiteness.

The distinction between people and culture is thus crucial. If my OP were about people rather than culture and I was complaining that black people were mistreating white people in some way. I would immediately be suggesting that black people are a homogeneous group. In lieu of criticising the specific individuals, I should not be given a licence to say "black people are mistreating white people". Who are "black people"?... This is why the distinction between culture and people is crucial. There are no groups to criticise. Only individuals of all skin colours and it is often futile to try and criticise them all individually, rather we have to look at the cause of their racism and that is culture.
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15-10-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 10:00 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 02:22 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  You claim you are "literally "using the words I have used prior"? This is false.
You described whites as a "force" that should be "combated". Not me. Don't get sour when you get called out on such silly additions the conversation.

Wow, you're gonna be this dishonest and just go there? Those were merely filler with no extra meaning other to get to the point. You alone inferred some militaristic components to it. Its obviously not possible to add zero words to the discussion. All terms you've accused Me of using in a negative contexts are purely interpreted by you as that way.

If you think I have some meaning and agenda behind every word, you need lessons in communicating rationally. No wonder you see there's an "overlooked" "attack" on whiteness if you show an incapability to not attach an ulterior motive to all language choices.

"filler words"... nice side-step.

How about you just state your position then?

1) Do you agree that white stereotypes exist?
2) If so, do you agree that these stereotypes are generally overlooked?
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15-10-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
The waters have become very muddied and I think a reminder of the crux of my OP is in order.

Here is what I am arguing for. If you would like to engage me, please reference a point you disagree with or would like evidence for.

1) White stereotypes currently exist.
2) They are largely overlooked (and thus merit discussion).
3) Pop-culture promotes them.

Also - a reminder again that the word "attack" in my OP was intended to be attributed to "culture" which I was personifying and criticising. My title was meant to invoke a metaphorical being called "culture" who was choosing to attack whiteness (another conceptual idea). I felt it to be a good title insofar as click bait is concerned, but I realise that I should have anticipated that it would be construed as a criticism of people. I did make it clear in my OP that I am not criticising people and I have made it clear many times since. I do not believe there is a hidden agenda or "conspiracy" against whiteness. I do believe that there are racist components to pop culture which negatively stereotype whiteness and that these components are generally more overlooked than other stereotype which also exist.
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15-10-2014, 02:08 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 01:51 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  The waters have become very muddied and I think a reminder of the crux of my OP is in order.

Here is what I am arguing for. If you would like to engage me, please reference a point you disagree with or would like evidence for.

1) White stereotypes currently exist.
2) They are largely overlooked (and thus merit discussion).
3) Pop-culture promotes them.

Also - a reminder again that the word "attack" in my OP was intended to be attributed to "culture" which I was personifying and criticising. My title was meant to invoke a metaphorical being called "culture" who was choosing to attack whiteness (another conceptual idea). I felt it to be a good title insofar as click bait is concerned, but I realise that I should have anticipated that it would be construed as a criticism of people. I did make it clear in my OP that I am not criticising people and I have made it clear many times since. I do not believe there is a hidden agenda or "conspiracy" against whiteness. I do believe that there are racist components to pop culture which negatively stereotype whiteness and that these components are generally more overlooked than other stereotype which also exist.

I would not be inclined to disagree with any of that. I would point out though that "stereotyping", while a close cousin to racism, is not quite the same thing. I think the issue I took with your post is that you seemed to be implying that whites are frequently victims of racism, along with other muddled discussions of things like reverse racism. The former is true, the latter is largely not true.
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15-10-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 01:36 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Your exact words in your first paragraph were: "It is right to take away the racist, unearned, unjust privileges". You say this as if I said anything in my OP to the contrary. This is why I claim you don't understand my OP. You seem to think I disagree that inequality should be addressed.... This line from my OP highlights that I am all for dealing with inequality and redistributing "privileges": "By all means, let's address equality issues in other areas like economic empowerment, policing etc... But when it comes to our current culture, we absolutely have to be colour-blind".

Please read that paragraph again. I am well aware that you agree with the cause against real racism. What I did in that paragraph is take some of what you are calling racism against whites and show you that it isn't - it is only removing what was unjustly gained.

(15-10-2014 01:36 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Where your understanding of my OP falls short is (as you concede) you don't see the significance of the distinction between culture and people.

To keep this clear, I conceded that I don't see the difference; I do not concede that my understanding of your OP falls short.

(15-10-2014 01:36 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  My point is essentially that there are components of our culture which stereotype whiteness as racist. These components are objectively racist. Moreover, they are hidden or overlooked. We are talking about culturally-accepted things within language, media, music, memes etc which frame whiteness in a negative light... One example is the culturally accepted term "reverse racism" which frames racism in its default form as white.... Another would be the collective noun "people of colour" which unites all peoples except for those with white skin. Why? How is this righteous?... More examples include lyrics in popular music (let me know if you want some quotes); or what about political correctness, which seems to be a behavioural tight-rope exclusively enforced on people who are considered white.... These examples and many others are examples of components to our culture which are objectively racist against whiteness.

And I disagree that these are racist at all. You interpret them that way, but that doesn't make your interpretation correct. In my first reply to you in this thread, I pointed out how your interpretations are inaccurate.

Where do you get the idea the "reverse racism" implicates whites specifically? On the contrary, it says to me that the person using the term means that when measures are put into place to counter racism it sometimes results in racism being redirected back to the original racists - regardless of specific races involved. The point about "people of color" is simply ridiculous. If I'm helping impoverished people and refer to them with that label, am I discriminating against more well-to-do people? Of course not. The cry of discrimination would be ludicrous because it has nothing to do with what is going on there. And it is just as ridiculous with the phrase "people of color" supposedly discriminating against whites.

(15-10-2014 01:36 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  The distinction between people and culture is thus crucial. If my OP were about people rather than culture and I was complaining that black people were mistreating white people in some way. I would immediately be suggesting that black people are a homogeneous group. In lieu of criticising the specific individuals, I should not be given a licence to say "black people are mistreating white people". Who are "black people"?... This is why the distinction between culture and people is crucial. There are no groups to criticise. Only individuals of all skin colours and it is often futile to try and criticise them all individually, rather we have to look at the cause of their racism and that is culture.

When culture is the issue, then it is only the participants in that aspect of the culture that are the problem. Just because culture may imply that black people are more likely to be criminals, doesn't mean everyone in the culture adopts that belief. The culture only makes it more likely that people will adopt this same attitude. It still takes specific people to actually do so. As I said, the two are inseparable. I think that's very similar to what you just said. The difference between you and I is you seem to be saying we should focus the fixes on the culture because focusing on the people is futile. I say that focusing on the culture is focusing on the people.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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15-10-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 01:51 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  1) White stereotypes currently exist.
2) They are largely overlooked (and thus merit discussion).
3) Pop-culture promotes them.

I'm not sure I would go so far as to claim that no white stereotypes exist, but a key point is you haven't demonstrated that any do. Nor can I think of any offhand myself. So, until we get past number 1, numbers 2 and 3 don't even make sense to discuss at all.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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15-10-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(15-10-2014 01:41 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 10:00 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Wow, you're gonna be this dishonest and just go there? Those were merely filler with no extra meaning other to get to the point. You alone inferred some militaristic components to it. Its obviously not possible to add zero words to the discussion. All terms you've accused Me of using in a negative contexts are purely interpreted by you as that way.

If you think I have some meaning and agenda behind every word, you need lessons in communicating rationally. No wonder you see there's an "overlooked" "attack" on whiteness if you show an incapability to not attach an ulterior motive to all language choices.

"filler words"... nice side-step.

How about you just state your position then?

1) Do you agree that white stereotypes exist?
2) If so, do you agree that these stereotypes are generally overlooked?

I've directly stated my position in times you've asked prior.. You've either ignored it in posts or stated I output some underlying meaning.

1) Yes, obviously
2) No.. I don't think so. I've not seen any reason why I would believe they're greatly overlooked. I see no evidence in this thread to a reason I should think such a thing either. I'm not sure what you think goes on, but at least in US culture, many stereotypes including white stereotypes are very commonly seen and understood as they are.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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