The hidden attack on whiteness
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-10-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
When white people are actually disadvantaged in some way, I'll only then care about this as a problem that needs more attention. Otherwise, as long as there is a legal recourse for white people who can prove in court a specific incidence of racism that caused them specific harm, it really isn't a big deal.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like BryanS's post
30-10-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(27-10-2014 10:06 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  To simplify the point you seem to can't understand of why I think negative views of some groups can benefit others. It's because fighting inequality is assisted by active societal acknowledgement of areas where inequality exists... and not ignoring it or letting it be dismissed doesn't lead to much progress. This accounts for inequality of choice, power, wealth, social perceptions, etc.

You are arguing that negative views of white people is a good thing. This argument is distinct from other respondents who have mostly argued that the problem exists but is not a big deal You aren't arguing that it's no big deal, you're arguing that its a good thing.... This is why I have accused your view as being too simplistic. Creating social equality doesn't mean we should have negative views of white people. It means we should make tangible changes and actually create social equality.

1) If we perpetuate cultural vilification of a group, we will be more likely to polarise people and delay progress.

2) There is no justification for inaccurately stereotyping a group based on their skin colour.

My OP is intended to bring to the surface issues which I feel are overlooked and taboo to discuss. I will engage people who disagree or feel that the problem of white stereotypes doesn't exist. However, I am not particularly interested in engaging someone who wants to argue that these negative views of white people is a good thing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Spade=Spade's post
30-10-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  What I meant is literally what I said. How much any particular individual's opinions affect others is literally and necessarily proportional to their ability to act on those opinions.

What was that you were saying about the moon being round?

(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  You really don't seem to understand the difference between stereotyping and statistics, do you?

A statement of statistically significant correlation is not fallacious. Your repeated refusal to understand this perplexes me.
The problem is that simply saying "whites are privileged" is not a "statement of statistically significant correlation".

Even if you had provided the statistics, it would still be fallacious to make an unfounded assertion about whites based on these statistics.

The only way to validate the statement would be to caveat it with the statistics. For example, "X percentage of white people in the USA are privileged"

And even then you run into trouble as you would need to define "white people" (Does Barack Obama count for example?)... And you would also need to define "privilege".... And finally, your statement would only be geographically valid. (i.e what's true for one town in the US, might not be true for another town in some other part of the world.)

This is quite at odds with a general, overarching culture of simplistically stereotyping white people.

The level of detail I have highlighted above has not been met by you at any point. This is why I again draw attention to the incompatibility between your lazy acceptance of incomplete data (i.e. statements like "white people are privileged") and you overly-certain stance on maintaining the status quo.

(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  One more time, because I am an indulgent man:
Privilege is not a stereotype. It is a social phenomenon. It is real.
One more time, because you also appear to be a stubborn man. Privilege is as real as crime or racism. But (1) you have provided no stats to (2) no geographical locations and (3) provided no definition of "white people" and (4) no definition of "privilege".

The laziness to ignore those criteria is no different from the laziness of ignoring the real reasons for crime.

When the above criteria are satisfied, you might find that your "statements of statistically significant correlations" are quite narrow in the end and are not proportionate to the generalised statement of "whites are privileged"

You might end up with a statement like "White people (definition needed) in this region of the USA are X% more likely to be privileged (definition needed) than black people (definition need)."

And even then, you would need to consider and define other race groups beyond just black and white.

(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 06:46 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  With this in mind, I maintain that the onus of proof is on you. You will struggle to prove that "literally no one" has denied the existence of white stereotypes, but that's not my problem. You should have thought about that before you made such a bizarre claim.

In this thread, bud. In this thread. Notwithstanding...

Hmmmm, so on one hand, you claim that this is "the entire position I claim to be arguing against"... and now you constrain your argument to only "this thread".

Ok, let's tie these two pieces together and see where it gets us...

According to you, "the entire position I claim to be arguing against" is that "literally no one in this thread" has denied the existence of white stereotypes.

Adapt much?

(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 06:46 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Ok, I will acknowledge this point, but counter with the reminder that we don't ignore theft because murder is worse.

No, indeed. But if someone was robbing you while someone else was murdering you I'm fairly sure I can guess which you'd consider a more immediate problem.
True, but society is made up of more than just one person isn't it. So whilst it may be true that if one person was being robbed and murdered at the same time, that person would be advised to give his or her sole focus to evading the murder, it is NOT also true that if a society has problems with both murder and theft, they should only focus on the murder problems and allow thefts to happen.

(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  But I would still reiterate once more the point I've raised many times now:
Not all stereotypes are created equally - by which I mean not all are as liable to adversely affect others. The problems following thereon are thus of varying severity - just as theft and murder.

I believe the most difference can be made immediately by acting against the prejudices which are most serious, and, this is key, most able to affect others.

Agreed. The reason I feel the OP is worthy of discussion is only because I believe it is comparatively overlooked in relation to other stereotypes. I agree that not all stereotypes are equal and that priorities should be arranged to alleviate greatest suffering most, but acknowledgement of the uniquely "taboo/ overlooked" nature of this particular issue is what I am trying to bring to the surface.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-10-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  What I meant is literally what I said. How much any particular individual's opinions affect others is literally and necessarily proportional to their ability to act on those opinions.

What was that you were saying about the moon being round?

If it seems obvious to you, why did you feel a need to first misrepresent the statement, and then argue against that misrepresentation?

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  You really don't seem to understand the difference between stereotyping and statistics, do you?

A statement of statistically significant correlation is not fallacious. Your repeated refusal to understand this perplexes me.
The problem is that simply saying "whites are privileged" is not a "statement of statistically significant correlation".

You should do some readings on the topic.

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Even if you had provided the statistics, it would still be fallacious to make an unfounded assertion about whites based on these statistics.

I fail to see how it's an unfounded assertion to "conclude" from a statistical statement that, hmm, the statement itself is true.

What "unfounded assertion" have I drawn from the statements I've made?

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  The only way to validate the statement would be to caveat it with the statistics. For example, "X percentage of white people in the USA are privileged"

I am not entirely sure you understand the statement. This nonsensical example would certainly suggest as much.

Or: what percentage of tall people are tall?

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  And even then you run into trouble as you would need to define "white people" (Does Barack Obama count for example?)... And you would also need to define "privilege".... And finally, your statement would only be geographically valid. (i.e what's true for one town in the US, might not be true for another town in some other part of the world.)

This is quite at odds with a general, overarching culture of simplistically stereotyping white people.

The level of detail I have highlighted above has not been met by you at any point.

I don't see how whining for that level of hypercorrective detail is anything but a tedious evasion on your part.
(I could be just as fatuous in response, and ask you to define all the keywords you've used this whole time - say, beginning with "stereotype", "white", etc; to define your political, geographical, and demographical areas of concern, and so forth... but I fail to see where that would be productive)

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  This is why I again draw attention to the incompatibility between your lazy acceptance of incomplete data (i.e. statements like "white people are privileged") and you overly-certain stance on maintaining the status quo.

Perhaps you might start by providing something remotely approaching that level of detail yourself, if you are apparently so concerned with it?

Notwithstanding, I nonetheless completely fail to see where you draw the insane conclusion that anything I've said constitutes "maintaining the status quo". That appears to be a complete non sequitur.

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  One more time, because I am an indulgent man:
Privilege is not a stereotype. It is a social phenomenon. It is real.
One more time, because you also appear to be a stubborn man. Privilege is as real as crime or racism. But (1) you have provided no stats to (2) no geographical locations and (3) provided no definition of "white people" and (4) no definition of "privilege".

Oh, lovely. You are trying to make this as tedious as possible. I did suggest earlier you do some reading; perhaps you might start here?

That you have already conversed at length with me regarding the topic and literally just re-affirmed your acknowledgement of its existence would suggest to me that I do not, in fact, need to define "privilege" at length...

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  The laziness to ignore those criteria is no different from the laziness of ignoring the real reasons for crime.

Yes. No different. Except for the differences, naturally.

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  When the above criteria are satisfied, you might find that your "statements of statistically significant correlations" are quite narrow in the end and are not proportionate to the generalised statement of "whites are privileged"

Or you could review some actual social research. Your choice.

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  You might end up with a statement like "White people (definition needed) in this region of the USA are X% more likely to be privileged (definition needed) than black people (definition need)."

And even then, you would need to consider and define other race groups beyond just black and white.

This again. Okay - you first.

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  In this thread, bud. In this thread. Notwithstanding...

Hmmmm, so on one hand, you claim that this is "the entire position I claim to be arguing against"... and now you constrain your argument to only "this thread".

Because you literally said it had occured in this thread.

So, you know. Citation still needed. Have you forgotten so soon?

(23-10-2014 07:13 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  There have been other respondents who don't accept that white stereotypes exist at all.
(23-10-2014 08:20 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Citation needed.
(23-10-2014 09:06 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Go read through the entire thread.

So there's that.

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Ok, let's tie these two pieces together and see where it gets us...

According to you, "the entire position I claim to be arguing against" is that "literally no one in this thread" has denied the existence of white stereotypes.

Adapt much?

Yeah. You're never going to provide that citation I asked for, are you?

Oh, well.

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, indeed. But if someone was robbing you while someone else was murdering you I'm fairly sure I can guess which you'd consider a more immediate problem.
True, but society is made up of more than just one person isn't it. So whilst it may be true that if one person was being robbed and murdered at the same time, that person would be advised to give his or her sole focus to evading the murder, it is NOT also true that if a society has problems with both murder and theft, they should only focus on the murder problems and allow thefts to happen.

Two points:
"All problems deserve exactly equal attention" is clearly absurd.
"Some problems deserve no attention" is not a thing anyone has advocated.

You, uh... you really like arguing against things people haven't said, huh?

(30-10-2014 03:37 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 09:39 AM)cjlr Wrote:  But I would still reiterate once more the point I've raised many times now:
Not all stereotypes are created equally - by which I mean not all are as liable to adversely affect others. The problems following thereon are thus of varying severity - just as theft and murder.

I believe the most difference can be made immediately by acting against the prejudices which are most serious, and, this is key, most able to affect others.

Agreed. The reason I feel the OP is worthy of discussion is only because I believe it is comparatively overlooked in relation to other stereotypes. I agree that not all stereotypes are equal and that priorities should be arranged to alleviate greatest suffering most, but acknowledgement of the uniquely "taboo/ overlooked" nature of this particular issue is what I am trying to bring to the surface.

Thank you for granting all that. Why did it take so long? Most of the responses you seemed to disagree with said nothing more than what you have just granted.

I am once again quite perplexed by just what you think you've been arguing against over these 200+ posts.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like cjlr's post
30-10-2014, 11:26 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2014 10:01 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(30-10-2014 02:40 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 10:06 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  To simplify the point you seem to can't understand of why I think negative views of some groups can benefit others. It's because fighting inequality is assisted by active societal acknowledgement of areas where inequality exists... and not ignoring it or letting it be dismissed doesn't lead to much progress. This accounts for inequality of choice, power, wealth, social perceptions, etc.

You are arguing that negative views of white people is a good thing. This argument is distinct from other respondents who have mostly argued that the problem exists but is not a big deal You aren't arguing that it's no big deal, you're arguing that its a good thing.... This is why I have accused your view as being too simplistic. Creating social equality doesn't mean we should have negative views of white people. It means we should make tangible changes and actually create social equality.

1) If we perpetuate cultural vilification of a group, we will be more likely to polarise people and delay progress.

2) There is no justification for inaccurately stereotyping a group based on their skin colour.

My OP is intended to bring to the surface issues which I feel are overlooked and taboo to discuss. I will engage people who disagree or feel that the problem of white stereotypes doesn't exist. However, I am not particularly interested in engaging someone who wants to argue that these negative views of white people is a good thing.

I don't understand you at all.. I never said or indicated I think negative views of white people are a good thing. You seem to not want to take things on a face value and instead would rather input a subliminal agenda. like Cjlr has said, you seem to like arguing against things nobody has said. (Here's a little tip, if you don't want to think about it. When I said, "negative views of others can benefit people" is there any indication I'm talking about white people in that post? Hmm maybe it would be inaccurate for one to assume I was talking about white people...)

How about you read a point multiple times until you understand it, that's a better way to learn a point than assume it's something in opposition to your ideas. I understand you point, I disagree with it because it lacks justification. On what grounds do you base these stereotypes you see in society are merely/mainly based on skin color? A question asked at the start that you've avoided. Again, what is the best way to understand and deal with these stereotypes? What is the basis that they are overlooked? You have given a few links that doesn't really indicate this is the case. That data can be interpenetrated multiple ways and looking back in this thread, many don't agree they are overlooked the way you claim. You just keep reiterating it.

I think people are actually aware of white stereotypes existing. I don't think it's a "good thing."
I also don't think all the things you may see as other white stereotyping is based on "whiteness" or "race" at all but it's potentially other cultural/economical based stereotyping.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like ClydeLee's post
31-10-2014, 05:20 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
One thing you'll notice with victims of racism is that when people suggest that they are not victims they tend to get more defensive than usual.

[Image: sigone_zps207cf92c.png]

Leonard Nimoy
1931-2015
Live long and prosper.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-10-2014, 07:27 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(31-10-2014 05:20 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  One thing you'll notice with victims of racism is that when people suggest that they are not victims they tend to get more defensive than usual.

Did our boy get called a cracker at school or something?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-10-2014, 08:56 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(31-10-2014 05:20 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  One thing you'll notice with victims of racism is that when people suggest that they are not victims they tend to get more defensive than usual.

So do Bigots.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
31-10-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(31-10-2014 07:27 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-10-2014 05:20 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  One thing you'll notice with victims of racism is that when people suggest that they are not victims they tend to get more defensive than usual.

Did our boy get called a cracker at school or something?

Actually he lives in a country where white people are a minority and get victimised by the police. I can't remember what he said exactly because I can't be bothered going through all of the pages and reading everything to find it, but I'm sure he'll mention it again when he sees this post.

[Image: sigone_zps207cf92c.png]

Leonard Nimoy
1931-2015
Live long and prosper.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(31-10-2014 06:32 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Actually he lives in a country where white people are a minority and get victimised by the police.

So did I. That's not hidden though Drinking Beverage

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: