The hidden attack on whiteness
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10-10-2014, 05:05 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:02 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:whereas we are blind to the racism against whiteness in our culture

I dunno. What I think you're referring to as some sort of subtle behind the scenes white racist thing I think is actually others gaining things (such as equal rights and shit) and so whites are going from being superior to equal. So it's not racism, it's everyone else being bumped up to the same level of white people and so white people aren't all special any more.

You've misunderstood my point. I am all for addressing tangible inequality. What I against is cultural contempt for whiteness and popular media drawing associations between whiteness and racism.
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10-10-2014, 05:12 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:05 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  What I against is cultural contempt for whiteness and popular media drawing associations between whiteness and racism.

I don't quite see that this is a huge problem... especially in America where there are plenty of whiteys Tongue If there is an association it's at least got some historical justification.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-10-2014, 05:18 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:12 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 05:05 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  What I against is cultural contempt for whiteness and popular media drawing associations between whiteness and racism.

I don't quite see that this is a huge problem... especially in America where there are plenty of whiteys Tongue If there is an association it's at least got some historical justification.

I couldn't disagree more.

1) The world is bigger than just America.
2) History might explain cultural contempt, but it does not justify it as you claim. White people born today inherit that contempt through no fault of their own. Clearly this is wrong.
3) If you think that cultural contempt isn't a huge problem, I would argue that it depends on the degree of contempt. Cultural contempt for Jews in Europe might not have been seen as a "huge problem" in 1920, but we have learned that culture is not static. *

* To be clear - I am not suggesting that whites will be persecuted like Jews were in Nazi Germany. I am using an example to illustrate that culture is not static. Better throw that in before someone inevitably misconstrues it.
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10-10-2014, 05:26 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:03 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 04:45 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I never expected you would return to the forum so I never bothered the respond.

To conflate any cultural movement as an attack on whiteness is intentionally looking to bait.

There is a shift to realize, Hey there's a segment of of people in some areas that have been the dominant force for no rational reason. We should probably combat that because we desire more equality.... that just happens to be a knock against most whites of Northern/Western hemispheres.

1) The word "attack" was unfortunate as I expressed above. I intended to personify Culture and put it on trial. I should have anticipated the inevitable confusion it created with some people.

2) As per my OP, let's by all means address tangible inequalities amongst racial groups caused by our ancestors, but this does not mean that racism isn't racism.

Your example is too simplistic. It should read as follows:

"Hey there's a segment of people whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet and now they have inherited better fortune as a result. Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors."

If you think it's too simplistic, what do you think is more elaborate about it?

I literally don't get what you're thinking is racist then. If it's that whites are bickered at for because minorities have tougher times getting jobs, but it's that whites don't actually experience the scenarios in the same way minorities may have too. It's not implications that they're therefore racist, and nobody sensible would ever infer that "only" whites are ignorant of other cultures. Your points just seem conflicted and not forming a strong social understanding.

What you proclaim to be racism, I see as rational acknowledgment of situations. There should always be cultural contempt for the dominant culture... that's how you stop dominant cultures from remaining aggressively dominant, which is unjust.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-10-2014, 05:29 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
I assumed you were in America Wink I myself do not live there.

What I mean is... is this contempt for white people so widespread that we need to do something about it? Raise awareness?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-10-2014, 05:47 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:26 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 05:03 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  1) The word "attack" was unfortunate as I expressed above. I intended to personify Culture and put it on trial. I should have anticipated the inevitable confusion it created with some people.

2) As per my OP, let's by all means address tangible inequalities amongst racial groups caused by our ancestors, but this does not mean that racism isn't racism.

Your example is too simplistic. It should read as follows:

"Hey there's a segment of people whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet and now they have inherited better fortune as a result. Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors."

If you think it's too simplistic, what do you think is more elaborate about it?

I literally don't get what you're thinking is racist then. If it's that whites are bickered at for because minorities have tougher times getting jobs, but it's that whites don't actually experience the scenarios in the same way minorities may have too. It's not implications that they're therefore racist, and nobody sensible would ever infer that "only" whites are ignorant of other cultures. Your points just seem conflicted and not forming a strong social understanding.

What you proclaim to be racism, I see as rational acknowledgment of situations. There should always be cultural contempt for the dominant culture... that's how you stop dominant cultures from remaining aggressively dominant, which is unjust.

1) I elaborated on your example in my response. Read it again if you missed it.

2) You seem to be missing that the OP is a criticism of culture, not people. Let me sum up my position in a few bullet points:
- Our culture negatively affects all groups in many different ways.
- We are all very aware of the negative stereotypes our culture perpetuates which affect blackness / gayness / arabness etc.
- I am shining a light on the lesser-known stereotypes which are perpetuated by our culture which negatively affect whiteness.
- These stereotypes are lesser-known and therefore warrant awareness so as to curtail their longevity.

If the internet is a good barometer of what our culture promotes and what it frowns upon, the number of memes which depict (and therefore perpetuate) whites as racists should demonstrate my position.

Have a look at this video as just one of many examples.
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10-10-2014, 05:50 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  I assumed you were in America Wink I myself do not live there.

What I mean is... is this contempt for white people so widespread that we need to do something about it? Raise awareness?

It gets less airtime than other forms of racism, so I guess that warrants mentioning it on forums like these, hopefully as an effort to cut short its longevity.

We can't have a happy, peaceful world if there is contempt for any group, regardless of the proposed reason.
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10-10-2014, 06:25 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:50 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  We can't have a happy, peaceful world if there is contempt for any group, regardless of the proposed reason.

I think we can't have a happy peaceful world full stop. Not gonna happen. Anyways. I'm just glad you didn't turn out to be some racist apologist. I still think you're a bit nuts but that applies to pretty much everyone.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-10-2014, 06:32 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 05:47 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 05:26 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If you think it's too simplistic, what do you think is more elaborate about it?

I literally don't get what you're thinking is racist then. If it's that whites are bickered at for because minorities have tougher times getting jobs, but it's that whites don't actually experience the scenarios in the same way minorities may have too. It's not implications that they're therefore racist, and nobody sensible would ever infer that "only" whites are ignorant of other cultures. Your points just seem conflicted and not forming a strong social understanding.

What you proclaim to be racism, I see as rational acknowledgment of situations. There should always be cultural contempt for the dominant culture... that's how you stop dominant cultures from remaining aggressively dominant, which is unjust.

1) I elaborated on your example in my response. Read it again if you missed it.

2) You seem to be missing that the OP is a criticism of culture, not people. Let me sum up my position in a few bullet points:
- Our culture negatively affects all groups in many different ways.
- We are all very aware of the negative stereotypes our culture perpetuates which affect blackness / gayness / arabness etc.
- I am shining a light on the lesser-known stereotypes which are perpetuated by our culture which negatively affect whiteness.
- These stereotypes are lesser-known and therefore warrant awareness so as to curtail their longevity.

If the internet is a good barometer of what our culture promotes and what it frowns upon, the number of memes which depict (and therefore perpetuate) whites as racists should demonstrate my position.

Have a look at this video as just one of many examples.

You didn't really add anything I didn't say, so I don't get what you claim you needed to elaborate... If anything I thought you simplified it yourself by making wealth more significant of a factor.

What I would call mocking people for being in a social dominant position, you are calling mocking people for being white. That's what I'm trying to state. It's classism/dominant culture shaming over racist lead attacking in my position. And I think those are positions that should be existent and prominently spread.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-10-2014, 07:06 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 06:32 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 05:47 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  1) I elaborated on your example in my response. Read it again if you missed it.

2) You seem to be missing that the OP is a criticism of culture, not people. Let me sum up my position in a few bullet points:
- Our culture negatively affects all groups in many different ways.
- We are all very aware of the negative stereotypes our culture perpetuates which affect blackness / gayness / arabness etc.
- I am shining a light on the lesser-known stereotypes which are perpetuated by our culture which negatively affect whiteness.
- These stereotypes are lesser-known and therefore warrant awareness so as to curtail their longevity.

If the internet is a good barometer of what our culture promotes and what it frowns upon, the number of memes which depict (and therefore perpetuate) whites as racists should demonstrate my position.

Have a look at this video as just one of many examples.

You didn't really add anything I didn't say, so I don't get what you claim you needed to elaborate... If anything I thought you simplified it yourself by making wealth more significant of a factor.

What I would call mocking people for being in a social dominant position, you are calling mocking people for being white. That's what I'm trying to state. It's classism/dominant culture shaming over racist lead attacking in my position. And I think those are positions that should be existent and prominently spread.

Ok, this is your example:

" Hey there's a segment of of people in some areas that have been the dominant force for no rational reason. We should probably combat that because we desire more equality"

And this is my example:

"Hey there's a segment of people whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet and now they have inherited better fortune as a result. Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors."

Why is yours too simplistic?
Well, for starters let's take the line "who have been the dominant force". This line assumes that white people today are homogenous with their ancestors.... What about the word "force"... What does that mean? It seems to depict white people as an army - again, this overly simplisctic collective noun has incorrectly represented what white people are (namely, a bunch of individuals just like anyone else).... Also, you finish with "we should probably combat that"... Again, your perspective seems militant and overly simplified. What force are you combating?... Furthermore, despite my best efforts you keep focusing on people rather than culture and your perspective seems very "us" and "they".

How did I elaborate?
Firstly, I added the line " whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet " - this shows that there is a distinction between people today and people of the past who shared the same skin colour... Secondly, where you wrote "dominant force", I wrote "they have inherited better fortune as a result". This shows that the issue is not the fault of these individuals but rather something they inherited (ie something outside of their control).... Thirdly, where you talk about combating them, I wrote " Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors" - I pay you the compliment of being able to see how this last line is more elaborate without needing me to point it out to you.

I could have added that this same logic should also apply to the Arab world, Asia, Africa and all other places where there is a history of violence and struggle for power... The lesson we take from history is that HUMANS have a history of violence, not only white people.

Lastly, to address your other point about contempt for whiteness really just being contempt for the upper class. I would dispute this as an optimistic assessment of the human condition. The associations drawn between whiteness and racism are as much about race as the associations drawn between blackness and say crime for example. We know that there is no causal link between skin colour and crime, but that doesn't stop the media portraying that way. That doesn't stop our culture from promoting this meme. Similarly, we know that there is no causal link between skin colour and racism, but one only has to do a similar review of social media culture or popular media to gauge how petty the human condition can be.

PS: Contempt is a good thing? Really? What would a happy, peaceful world look like to you if we ever reached it? How would contempt fit in to that model?
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