The hidden attack on whiteness
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10-10-2014, 07:17 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 07:06 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 06:32 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You didn't really add anything I didn't say, so I don't get what you claim you needed to elaborate... If anything I thought you simplified it yourself by making wealth more significant of a factor.

What I would call mocking people for being in a social dominant position, you are calling mocking people for being white. That's what I'm trying to state. It's classism/dominant culture shaming over racist lead attacking in my position. And I think those are positions that should be existent and prominently spread.

Ok, this is your example:

" Hey there's a segment of of people in some areas that have been the dominant force for no rational reason. We should probably combat that because we desire more equality"

And this is my example:

"Hey there's a segment of people whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet and now they have inherited better fortune as a result. Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors."

Why is this too simplistic?
Well, for starters let's take the line "who have been the dominant force". This line assumes that white people today are homogenous with their ancestors.... What about the word "force"... What does that mean? It seems to depict white people as an army - again, this overly simplisctic collective noun has incorrectly represented what white people are (namely, a bunch of individuals just like anyone else).... Also, you finish with "we should probably combat that"... Again, your perspective seems militant and overly simplified. What force are you combating?... Furthermore, despite my best efforts you keep focusing on people rather than culture and your perspective seems very "us" and "they".

How did I elaborate?
Firstly, I added the line " whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet " - this shows that there is a distinction between people today and people of the past who shared the same skin colour... Secondly, where you wrote "dominant force", I wrote "they have inherited better fortune as a result". This shows that the issue is not the fault of these individuals but rather something they inherited (ie something outside of their control).... Thirdly, where you talk about combating them, I wrote " Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors" - I pay you the compliment of being able to see how this last line is more elaborate without needing me to point it out to you.

I could have added that this same logic should also apply to the Arab world, Asia, Africa and all other places where there is a history of violence and struggle for power... The lesson we take from history is that HUMANS have a history of violence, not only white people.

Lastly, to address your other point about contempt for whiteness really just being contempt for the upper class. I would dispute this as an optimistic assessment of the human condition. The associations drawn between whiteness and racism are as much about race as the associations drawn between blackness and say crime for example. We know that there is no causal link between skin colour and crime, but that doesn't stop the media portraying that way. That doesn't stop our culture from promoting this meme. Similarly, we know that there is no causal link between skin colour and racism, but one only has to do a similar review of social media culture or popular media to gauge how petty the human condition can be.

PS: Contempt is a good thing? Really? What would a happy, peaceful world look like to you if we ever reached it? How would contempt fit in to that model?

WHAT?! You have some serious over-inference problem. You really don't need to attach such a meaning and purpose to every word choice said by someone on a forum. If you think I was implying force and some contempt, you're way too overreaching in trying to find some connections. In doing this, you're not doing ANY Simplification and that's what I figured by that before.

But the sad thing, is everything you did add, was something you could rationally infer from my post. No manner of simply individualism or militarily element should of been gleamed form that post.

I never mentioned contempt is a good thing. You're appearing outlandish now. My point is that there cannot be a happy-peaceful world if there is an unbalance and unchecked dominant force. If one exists, there is going to be people of a less situation wrecking that claim of happiness. For that, you need constant awareness to prevent a dominant force form rising.

Is there some racist behavior in patterns against white culture. Yes, is it an agenda inspired because of race, I don't think so. That's my point, i think the "agenda" lead cultural movements are ones of culture and class type scenarios. You even see the same mentality fairly attributed to privileged minority races as well as whites.

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10-10-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(10-10-2014 07:17 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 07:06 AM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Ok, this is your example:

" Hey there's a segment of of people in some areas that have been the dominant force for no rational reason. We should probably combat that because we desire more equality"

And this is my example:

"Hey there's a segment of people whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet and now they have inherited better fortune as a result. Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors."

Why is this too simplistic?
Well, for starters let's take the line "who have been the dominant force". This line assumes that white people today are homogenous with their ancestors.... What about the word "force"... What does that mean? It seems to depict white people as an army - again, this overly simplisctic collective noun has incorrectly represented what white people are (namely, a bunch of individuals just like anyone else).... Also, you finish with "we should probably combat that"... Again, your perspective seems militant and overly simplified. What force are you combating?... Furthermore, despite my best efforts you keep focusing on people rather than culture and your perspective seems very "us" and "they".

How did I elaborate?
Firstly, I added the line " whose ancestors mostly dominated the planet " - this shows that there is a distinction between people today and people of the past who shared the same skin colour... Secondly, where you wrote "dominant force", I wrote "they have inherited better fortune as a result". This shows that the issue is not the fault of these individuals but rather something they inherited (ie something outside of their control).... Thirdly, where you talk about combating them, I wrote " Let's work towards redistribution of wealth and equality, without irrational contempt for that segment of people because we realise that they have no control of the historical behaviour of their ancestors" - I pay you the compliment of being able to see how this last line is more elaborate without needing me to point it out to you.

I could have added that this same logic should also apply to the Arab world, Asia, Africa and all other places where there is a history of violence and struggle for power... The lesson we take from history is that HUMANS have a history of violence, not only white people.

Lastly, to address your other point about contempt for whiteness really just being contempt for the upper class. I would dispute this as an optimistic assessment of the human condition. The associations drawn between whiteness and racism are as much about race as the associations drawn between blackness and say crime for example. We know that there is no causal link between skin colour and crime, but that doesn't stop the media portraying that way. That doesn't stop our culture from promoting this meme. Similarly, we know that there is no causal link between skin colour and racism, but one only has to do a similar review of social media culture or popular media to gauge how petty the human condition can be.

PS: Contempt is a good thing? Really? What would a happy, peaceful world look like to you if we ever reached it? How would contempt fit in to that model?

WHAT?! You have some serious over-inference problem. You really don't need to attach such a meaning and purpose to every word choice said by someone on a forum. If you think I was implying force and some contempt, you're way too overreaching in trying to find some connections. In doing this, you're not doing ANY Simplification and that's what I figured by that before.

But the sad thing, is everything you did add, was something you could rationally infer from my post. No manner of simply individualism or militarily element should of been gleamed form that post.

I never mentioned contempt is a good thing. You're appearing outlandish now. My point is that there cannot be a happy-peaceful world if there is an unbalance and unchecked dominant force. If one exists, there is going to be people of a less situation wrecking that claim of happiness. For that, you need constant awareness to prevent a dominant force form rising.

Is there some racist behavior in patterns against white culture. Yes, is it an agenda inspired because of race, I don't think so. That's my point, i think the "agenda" lead cultural movements are ones of culture and class type scenarios. You even see the same mentality fairly attributed to privileged minority races as well as whites.

Well if you did not mean what I inferred, then that's good. At least I have highlighted to you how your words can be construed. The same type of complaint has (rightfully) come from black people when someone says something like "you people" to highlight just one similar example. To be clear though - white people are not a homogeneous group. White people are completely the same as all other groups of people - they are a bunch of individuals.

Regarding your point on "agenda lead cultural movements" - that may be a valid point, but it does not invalidate my OP. There may very well be an agenda lead cultural movement against upper class mentality but that is a separate point from my OP which is that pop-culture draws associations between whiteness and racism in the same way that it draws associations between blackness and crime. Both of these stereotypes are wrong and should be called out as racist stereotypes.
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11-10-2014, 08:17 AM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
Fair point, but I wouldn't say it's particularly 'hidden' since absolutely everyone knows about. Plus, you know, there are people going on national television and then telling the anchor that he's too stupid to understand things because he's a 'white male'.

"Hidden" isn't the first word that comes to mind at all.

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11-10-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(11-10-2014 08:17 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Fair point, but I wouldn't say it's particularly 'hidden' since absolutely everyone knows about. Plus, you know, there are people going on national television and then telling the anchor that he's too stupid to understand things because he's a 'white male'.

"Hidden" isn't the first word that comes to mind at all.

We condemn the stereotyping of Muslims as terrorists.. We condemn the stereotyping of blacks as thugs... We condemn the stereotyping of Asians as geeks.... But when last did you see a campaign/ protest/ documentary or anything condemning the stereotyping of whites as racists??... If it wasn't a hidden stereotype wouldn't we condemn it??

Heck, I got minus 2 rep points for this thread... That kinda proves my point.
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11-10-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(11-10-2014 01:58 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  Heck, I got minus 2 rep points for this thread... That kinda proves my point.

Proof right there that even in this forum which should be a safe haven you can be subjected to the *worst* kind of bullying and intimidation Rolleyes My God what is this world coming to?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-10-2014, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2014 02:31 PM by Cetaceaphile.)
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(11-10-2014 01:58 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 08:17 AM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Fair point, but I wouldn't say it's particularly 'hidden' since absolutely everyone knows about. Plus, you know, there are people going on national television and then telling the anchor that he's too stupid to understand things because he's a 'white male'.

"Hidden" isn't the first word that comes to mind at all.

We condemn the stereotyping of Muslims as terrorists.. We condemn the stereotyping of blacks as thugs... We condemn the stereotyping of Asians as geeks.... But when last did you see a campaign/ protest/ documentary or anything condemning the stereotyping of whites as racists??... If it wasn't a hidden stereotype wouldn't we condemn it??

Heck, I got minus 2 rep points for this thread... That kinda proves my point.

Yes it does, have a +1 from me.

I think the thing is that these things are imposed by other white people. It's not really something being imposed by another race, it's a self-imposed cultural thing. It comes out of the universities as far as I can tell, but it is pretty deeply imbedded in the culture now. Like I said though it's not really hidden at all, at least not in my part of the world.
I think part of it comes from being a majority race. Outside of europe and north America where white people are a minority it generally is considered taboo to say racist things against white people, though in many countries things said against the majority race in the population nobody really cares about.

If a majority calls a minority a racist name then it is generally penalised by other members of that majority, but when a minority calls a member of the majority a racist name it's like "Haha, ok." There are a few exceptions, but that seems to be how it is generally.
There are also many parts of the world where racism is considered a legitimate way to sort people and there are no taboos for stereotypes being assigned either way.

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11-10-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(11-10-2014 02:26 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 01:58 PM)Spade=Spade Wrote:  We condemn the stereotyping of Muslims as terrorists.. We condemn the stereotyping of blacks as thugs... We condemn the stereotyping of Asians as geeks.... But when last did you see a campaign/ protest/ documentary or anything condemning the stereotyping of whites as racists??... If it wasn't a hidden stereotype wouldn't we condemn it??

Heck, I got minus 2 rep points for this thread... That kinda proves my point.

Yes it does, have a +1 from me.

I think the thing is that these things are imposed by other white people. It's not really something being imposed by another race, it's a self-imposed cultural thing. It comes out of the universities as far as I can tell, but it is pretty deeply imbedded in the culture now. Like I said though it's not really hidden at all, at least not in my part of the world.
I think part of it comes from being a majority race. Outside of europe and north America where white people are a minority it generally is considered taboo to say racist things against white people, though in many countries things said against the majority race in the population nobody really cares about.

If a majority calls a minority a racist name then it is generally penalised by other members of that majority, but when a minority calls a member of the majority a racist name it's like "Haha, ok." There are a few exceptions, but that seems to be how it is generally.
There are also many parts of the world where racism is considered a legitimate way to sort people and there are no taboos for stereotypes being assigned either way.

Both of you cry me a river. When the cops bust into your house pepperspray you and arrest you because of the color of your skin maybe then you will know what actual racism looks like.


(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-10-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(11-10-2014 02:38 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 02:26 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Yes it does, have a +1 from me.

I think the thing is that these things are imposed by other white people. It's not really something being imposed by another race, it's a self-imposed cultural thing. It comes out of the universities as far as I can tell, but it is pretty deeply imbedded in the culture now. Like I said though it's not really hidden at all, at least not in my part of the world.
I think part of it comes from being a majority race. Outside of europe and north America where white people are a minority it generally is considered taboo to say racist things against white people, though in many countries things said against the majority race in the population nobody really cares about.

If a majority calls a minority a racist name then it is generally penalised by other members of that majority, but when a minority calls a member of the majority a racist name it's like "Haha, ok." There are a few exceptions, but that seems to be how it is generally.
There are also many parts of the world where racism is considered a legitimate way to sort people and there are no taboos for stereotypes being assigned either way.

Both of you cry me a river. When the cops bust into your house pepperspray you and arrest you because of the color of your skin maybe then you will know what actual racism looks like.


How on earth does recognising racism against white people lessen the importance of recognising racism against other races?

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11-10-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(11-10-2014 02:40 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 02:38 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Both of you cry me a river. When the cops bust into your house pepperspray you and arrest you because of the color of your skin maybe then you will know what actual racism looks like.


How on earth does recognising racism against white people lessen the importance of racism against other races?

Because it is not on the same level. Saying that some black people call white people crackers equates to that is the height of insanity.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-10-2014, 02:54 PM
RE: The hidden attack on whiteness
(11-10-2014 02:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-10-2014 02:40 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  How on earth does recognising racism against white people lessen the importance of racism against other races?

Because it is not on the same level. Saying that some black people call white people crackers equates to that is the height of insanity.

Nobody is claiming that an insult is as bad as bias race profiling; the claim is that the racism exists, it is racism, it's under the same umbrella, and we need to fight racism at every level, not just the very extreme. Seems like we do do that though, unless it's against white people and then even if someone is killed under a gangland code which requires an attack on a white person as a rite of passage (The Bloods, for example) it is not considered to be racist.

It is almost like the system is excluding white people from being able to be victims of racism. This is either claiming that white people are not real people (Which of course Tumblr SJWs often claim), or that white people are better than every other race and therefore cannot be victims (which is a claim of a few racist redneck songs I've heard).
Either way you push it, it is totally caddywhompus.

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