The hypocracy of atheism
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17-08-2014, 03:56 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 03:45 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  What principles are laid down by atheism as undeniably true?

Perhaps that god is inherently a matter of belief?

To test this out - do you think that's undeniably true or not?

Phil
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17-08-2014, 04:43 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 03:56 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 03:45 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  What principles are laid down by atheism as undeniably true?

Perhaps that god is inherently a matter of belief?

To test this out - do you think that's undeniably true or not?

That's like saying that the Laws of Thermodynamics are dogmatic when in reality scientists don't actually know for sure that they do universally apply, but all the evidence is that they do and there is no evidence anywhere or at any time that they don't.

There is a difference between claiming something as being undeniably true and pointing out something for which there is overwhelming evidence.

There is no overwhelming evidence for the existence of God. Even the many concepts of what a god is are logically inconsistent.

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of evolution for example, or that gods exist only in terms of people's belief.

It is not dogmatic to come to a conclusion based on evidence because it leaves open the possibility that new evidence will come to light, no matter how negligible the chance of that happening is.

Religion is dogmatic because it is not based on evidence but faith.
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17-08-2014, 05:10 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
Hi Mathilda,

Thanks for your response, I agree with much of what you say. For myself, I don't think the laws of thermodynamics are inherently dogmatic or non-dogmatic, where dogma may lie is in specific individual's relationship to these laws. My opinion is that the laws of thermodynamics are probably relative truths and that anyone holding them as absolute truths may therefore have a position that's affected by dogmatism.

Coming back to the topic of your question, it's my hypothesis that anyone who identifies as atheist will hold as an undeniable principle the idea that god is a matter of belief.

I'd like to test my hypothesis out using the scientific method, which means I actually need to get a self-identififed atheist to assert truth on the matter.

If you yourself do identify as atheist, in the name of enquiry into truth would you mind being a guinea pig and answering the direct question:

* Do you yourself think it's undeniably true that god is a matter of belief?

Phil
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17-08-2014, 05:26 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 05:10 AM)phil.a Wrote:  If you yourself do identify as atheist, in the name of enquiry into truth would you mind being a guinea pig and answering the direct question:

* Do you yourself think it's undeniably true that god is a matter of belief?

As a scientist and as a gnostic atheist I would first ask for you to define what a god is. I would then point to the evidence for or against it.

I would also like to ask exactly what you mean by "god is a matter of belief".

That sounds like am ambiguous phrase that can be used to hide a leap of faith in a set of otherwise seemingly logical steps.
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17-08-2014, 06:10 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
I dunno if this has been covered, but it's hypocrisy, not hypocrasy

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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17-08-2014, 06:28 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 03:56 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Perhaps that god is inherently a matter of belief?

To test this out - do you think that's undeniably true or not?

Phil
I'll take a stab at this, just to see where you're going.
But, instead of just answering 'yes or no', I'll give you my 'beliefs'....

I do not believe in a god, but I do not claim to know for certain that one does not exist.

(PS, this is the general stance of most atheists)

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17-08-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 06:28 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 03:56 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Perhaps that god is inherently a matter of belief?

To test this out - do you think that's undeniably true or not?

Phil
I'll take a stab at this, just to see where you're going.
But, instead of just answering 'yes or no', I'll give you my 'beliefs'....

I do not believe in a god, but I do not claim to know for certain that one does not exist.

(PS, this is the general stance of most atheists)

Belief in a god requires faith.

Faith - is the belief in something without evidence.

Delusion: is an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. A belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Religion - is the embracement of delusion.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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17-08-2014, 08:00 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 06:28 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 03:56 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Perhaps that god is inherently a matter of belief?

To test this out - do you think that's undeniably true or not?

Phil
I'll take a stab at this, just to see where you're going.
But, instead of just answering 'yes or no', I'll give you my 'beliefs'....

I do not believe in a god, but I do not claim to know for certain that one does not exist.

(PS, this is the general stance of most atheists)

... But that's still a problematic statement. Why?

Define "god".

And it isn't our job to do so - it's the duty of the one making the claim to manage a coherent definition. Anything less is just opening the door to rampant disingenuous equivocation.

It's pointlessly trivial to leave it undefined and say something which amounts to "I don't know what I don't know".

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17-08-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 05:26 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 05:10 AM)phil.a Wrote:  If you yourself do identify as atheist, in the name of enquiry into truth would you mind being a guinea pig and answering the direct question:

* Do you yourself think it's undeniably true that god is a matter of belief?

As a scientist and as a gnostic atheist I would first ask for you to define what a god is. I would then point to the evidence for or against it.

I personally have no fixed definition of "god", but that's fine because I'm not creating an identity for myself relative to that concept, I choose not to label myself.

Whereas I'd claim that anyone who is an explicit atheist, is creating a self-identity relative to the "god" concept, and that necessarily requires some conception of what the "god" concept actually means. To demonstrate this with a concrete example, if someone comes up and asks me, do I believe in "poma", how can I answer without having some conception of what, in reality, "poma" is purported to reference? I could say - well, I've heard this word used before but nobody has ever shown me evidence that it points to anything actual, so i lack belief in poma, I'm an apomerist.

But then, someone comes up to me and tells me that "poma" is Catalan for apple. Oops! Yes, I do believe in apples...

How can I say I lack belief in something without having some conception of what it is in fact I lack belief for?

So in answer to your question - I'd define "god" in relative terms - I'd define it here as whatever it is an atheist is talking about when he says "I lack god belief".


Quote:I would also like to ask exactly what you mean by "god is a matter of belief".

My dictionary defines Atheism thusly:
"disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods".

I assume that anyone who identifies as atheist would hold this claim to be true of themselves?

So again, I'd define "belief" relative to what an atheist means when he asserts that he lacks "belief" in god.

What does the word "belief" mean in this context? I think "belief" is a very complex concept, I personally feel I could take multiple slightly contradictory perspectives on it. But I'd certainly be interested to hear what it means to an someone who identifies as atheist.

By "matter of belief" I mean, primarily descriptive of, or constituted of "belief", with "belief" as defined above.

I'd also be curious to see if anyone who identifies as atheist can, against their own givens, and completely on their own terms, give me a direct answer to the following question:

* Do you yourself think it's undeniably true that god is a matter of belief?

Phil
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17-08-2014, 08:25 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
I say yes.

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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