The hypocracy of atheism
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17-08-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(16-08-2014 04:09 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  You preach dogma just like religions do.
Preach? Consider
Dogma? Consider

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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17-08-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 08:20 AM)phil.a Wrote:  I personally have no fixed definition of "god", but that's fine because I'm not creating an identity for myself relative to that concept, I choose not to label myself.

Whereas I'd claim that anyone who is an explicit atheist, is creating a self-identity relative to the "god" concept, and that necessarily requires some conception of what the "god" concept actually means.

That conception is provided implicitly by those who are theists.

If there were no theism there would be no atheism.

(17-08-2014 08:20 AM)phil.a Wrote:  How can I say I lack belief in something without having some conception of what it is in fact I lack belief for?

You can't, but no one does.

So there's that.

(17-08-2014 08:20 AM)phil.a Wrote:  So in answer to your question - I'd define "god" in relative terms - I'd define it here as whatever it is an atheist is talking about when he says "I lack god belief".

That's a very shitty answer.

(17-08-2014 08:20 AM)phil.a Wrote:  I'd also be curious to see if anyone who identifies as atheist can, against their own givens, and completely on their own terms, give me a direct answer to the following question:

* Do you yourself think it's undeniably true that god is a matter of belief?

Oh, dear sweet noodly appendage.

Well, I can see where this is going...

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17-08-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 06:28 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 03:56 AM)phil.a Wrote:  Perhaps that god is inherently a matter of belief?

To test this out - do you think that's undeniably true or not?

Phil
I'll take a stab at this, just to see where you're going.
But, instead of just answering 'yes or no', I'll give you my 'beliefs'....

I do not believe in a god, but I do not claim to know for certain that one does not exist.

Ok - thanks for the answer! It surfaces some of your position, but I don't really feel it answers my question? (Please explain how it does if you disagree with me on that).

Phil
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17-08-2014, 08:55 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That conception is provided implicitly by those who are theists.

If there were no theism there would be no atheism.

So you are effectively saying that you are defining "god" as "whatever definition of it the theists have"? OK I probably have to agree that position might hold water, having just used it myself :-)

And if you are saying you don't believe in "god" as defined by the theists, are you sure you understand their definition on their own terms? E.g. from a true representation of their actual perspective? Eg can you reflect their definition back at them and have them actually agree with you?


Quote:
(17-08-2014 08:20 AM)phil.a Wrote:  So in answer to your question - I'd define "god" in relative terms - I'd define it here as whatever it is an atheist is talking about when he says "I lack god belief".

That's a very shitty answer.

I agree, but it's effectively the answer you gave me above :-)

If I understood you correctly, you claim that your definition of god only exists relative to the theist definition.

I guess sometimes the truthful answer is a shitty answer!

Phil
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17-08-2014, 09:01 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 08:55 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 08:31 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That conception is provided implicitly by those who are theists.

If there were no theism there would be no atheism.

So you are effectively saying that you are defining "god" as "whatever definition of it the theists have"? OK I probably have to agree that position might hold water, having just used it myself :-)

Whatever definitions. There are thousands of flavours of theist in the world.

(17-08-2014 08:55 AM)phil.a Wrote:  And if you are saying you don't believe in "god" as defined by the theists, are you sure you understand their definition on their own terms? E.g. from a true representation of their actual perspective? Eg can you reflect their definition back at them and have them actually agree with you?

That's not a very good question.

I can repeat the definition a theist provides, but if I find it incoherent or contradictory that won't change their mind about it.

(17-08-2014 08:55 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
Quote:That's a very shitty answer.

I agree, but it's effectively the answer you gave me above :-)

If I understood you correctly, you claim that your definition of god only exists relative to the theist definition.

I guess sometimes the truthful answer is a shitty answer!

Phil

Sure, except for the part where it's the exact opposite of your statement. Nice try, though?

You said "god" was defined by atheists. I said "god" must be defined by theists... and then you agreed with me.

I'm not sure you're clear on your own position.

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17-08-2014, 09:09 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 08:20 AM)phil.a Wrote:  ...
So again, I'd define "belief" relative to what an atheist means when he asserts that he lacks "belief" in god.

What does the word "belief" mean in this context? I think "belief" is a very complex concept, I personally feel I could take multiple slightly contradictory perspectives on it. But I'd certainly be interested to hear what it means to an someone who identifies as atheist.

By "matter of belief" I mean, primarily descriptive of, or constituted of "belief", with "belief" as defined above.
...

So, let me see if I have this right?

"matter of belief" can be defined as ... "descriptive of, or constituted of" that which is "relative to what an atheist means when he asserts that he lacks "belief" in god."

Laugh out load

Did I miss something?

Consider

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17-08-2014, 09:15 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
There is no coherent definition of the three letter meme pronounced "gawd".
Theism is dismissed as incoherent and devoid of meaning.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-08-2014, 09:22 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 09:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no coherent definition of the three letter meme pronounced "gawd".
Theism is dismissed as incoherent and devoid of meaning.

It only has meaning in the imagination of the person who holds it to be true. In scientific reality you might as well string "Blx" or "fut" together and it would have the same usefulness.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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17-08-2014, 09:25 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 09:22 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  ...
you might as well string "Blx" or "fut" together and it would have the same usefulness.

Yabut, you can't prove that Blxfut doesn't exist!

All praise Blxfut. Praise him with great praise.

Worship Slaves

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17-08-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: The hypocracy of atheism
(17-08-2014 08:31 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(17-08-2014 06:28 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  I'll take a stab at this, just to see where you're going.
But, instead of just answering 'yes or no', I'll give you my 'beliefs'....

I do not believe in a god, but I do not claim to know for certain that one does not exist.

Ok - thanks for the answer! It surfaces some of your position, but I don't really feel it answers my question? (Please explain how it does if you disagree with me on that).

Phil
OK... I'll just say:

If a god is not real, then it is nothing more than man-made belief.
If a god does exist, then it is real regardless of whether we believe in it or not.

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