The importance of being remembered
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07-05-2014, 02:31 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
Life is essentially meaningless. It is just something that has come about. Everyone has to find their own meaning to their own life. Religion fills this need for some people, for others its politics, for many it's their children, for some it's being remembered.
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07-05-2014, 07:05 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(07-05-2014 01:10 AM)living thing Wrote:  I also agree with your observation of how poorly we seem to choose our idols; I think I may have mentioned it in another thread as well as this one. By remembering the people who have been most detrimental to humanity, we are encouraging some of those who want to live forever to attempt being even more detrimental to humanity, just so that they will be remembered too.
That is not true, and it is not an accurate description of the motivations.

Modern society does not memorialize the perpetrators of crimes against humanity - that is why we have developed the term and process of prosecuting the perpetrators.

The perpetrators are not motivated by the claim of causing the most destruction - they are motivated by the belief/claim to cause the most good for humanity.

(07-05-2014 02:31 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Life is essentially meaningless.

No. The meaning of life is to contribute to the better evolution of humanity.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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07-05-2014, 08:15 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(07-05-2014 07:05 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 02:31 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Life is essentially meaningless.

No. The meaning of life is to contribute to the better evolution of humanity.

That's the meaning that you apply to life. It is also the meaning I apply to my life. Not everyone applies the same meaning to their own life.
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07-05-2014, 09:59 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
Hello Mathilda, how are you?

(07-05-2014 02:31 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Life is essentially meaningless. It is just something that has come about. Everyone has to find their own meaning to their own life. Religion fills this need for some people, for others its politics, for many it's their children, for some it's being remembered.
If by meaningless you mean purposeless, then I don't disagree with you. I don't know if we all manage to find our own purposes in our lives, but certainly many of us do.

The desire to be remembered is a powerful behavioural motivator, there is no doubt about that in my mind. But one thing is wanting to be remembered while you live, and something different is actually being remembered once you're not alive. Wanting to be remembered can be good or bad news for others, depending on how one chooses to achieve memorability, but being remembered after one's death is irrelevant, because one never gets to know if he or she is actually remembered.

However, I don't think life is meaningless, because from my perspective, meaning and purpose are not the same notions. I view meaning as the set of implications that a piece of information conveys and, as such, life is full of meaning; it conveys plenty of implications. For example, it implies that matter can use change to prevent its own change in a universe that is constantly changing. Not for ever, but for long enough to enjoy it.

Our lives imply that our ancestors ensured the survival of their descendants; in that way, the lives of our ancestors are meaningful because our existence is an implication of their existence. If we help ensure the survival of those who will come after us, then our lives will become meaningful from their perspective. Of course, our lives may also become meaningful if we manage to be the person who causes human extinction, but in that case there would be no one there to remember our achievement. Massacres are a stupid way to seek immortality.

If people want to be remembered I'm happy with that, but I view my life as my only chance to experience the universe; I don't really care what happens after my death because I won't know.

Enjoy!
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07-05-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(07-05-2014 07:05 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  No. The meaning of life is to contribute to the better evolution of humanity.

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07-05-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
Hello, TrainWreck, how's it going? Thanks for coming back.

(07-05-2014 07:05 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 01:10 AM)living thing Wrote:  By remembering the people who have been most detrimental to humanity, we are encouraging some of those who want to live forever to attempt being even more detrimental to humanity, just so that they will be remembered too.
That is not true, and it is not an accurate description of the motivations.

Modern society does not memorialize the perpetrators of crimes against humanity - that is why we have developed the term and process of prosecuting the perpetrators.

The perpetrators are not motivated by the claim of causing the most destruction - they are motivated by the belief/claim to cause the most good for humanity.
I am glad that you live on a patch of land where other people tend to forget the names of those who have been most harmful to other human beings. Unfortunately, people in my surroundings seem more prone to idolising the "greatest" murderers.

If people's memorability is related to the number of documents written about them, and if internet search engines provide any sort of objective representation of the number of documents written about stuff, then the following table may be a useful indicator of relative memorability in our "modern" (i.e., primitive) societies. I have simply performed searches by name of two twentieth-century bastards with moustache whose names I prefer not to recall, as well as that of Vinton Cerf, who along with Bob Kahn (and thanks to the contributions of many others) invented the communication protocols on which this huge computer network relies. Below are the approximate number of search results reported by each engine:

Code:
                        Google        Bing        Yahoo        Ask
Alpine Bastard        25,100,000    9,750,000    9,750,000    14,100,000
Soviet Bastard         8,470,000    3,580,000    3,590,000     3,330,000
Vinton Cerf              404,000      316,000      316,000        47,000

I am not saying that you're wrong; it may be that your subjective view is the one you describe. But claiming that "modern society does not memorialize the perpetrators of crimes against humanity" is somewhat misleading. After all, many wax museums such as Madame Tussaud's in London have a whole section dedicated to famous murderers. But they don't seem to realise that it is people like them who make those murderers famous.

I've just read that a teenager was arrested a few days ago in Waseca, Minnesota, planning to commit yet another school shooting. Apparently, the little bastard idolised two other bastards from Columbine, Colorado who carried out their shooting fifteen years ago. Earlier this year, some other little bastard in Leicestershire, England was tried for plotting a massacre to which, in his notebook, he referred as "the new Columbine". Despite your claim, there seem to be human beings out there who find in causing a massacre their ticket to stardom.

But if someone wants to be remembered for ever, they need to understand what that implies. Remembrance is not something that happens out there, remembrance happens within our brains, so if we want to ensure that we are remembered after our deaths, we need to ensure that things with brains similar to our own survive after our deaths. If we manage to kill everyone around us, then no one will be able to remember us.

At least that is the way I see it but, as you point out, I may be mistaken.

Have a good time!
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07-05-2014, 10:21 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(07-05-2014 07:05 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 02:31 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Life is essentially meaningless.

No. The meaning of life is to contribute to the better evolution of humanity.
(07-05-2014 08:15 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  That's the meaning that you apply to life. It is also the meaning I apply to my life. Not everyone applies the same meaning to their own life.
Life and our lives are not the same thing.

Our species is one of the most recent that have ever existed. How would the meaning of life be contributing to the enhancement of humanity? If anything, humanity could choose to become meaningful for the enhancement of life. Maybe by exporting it to other stellar systems before this one cannot sustain it.
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07-05-2014, 10:39 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(07-05-2014 08:15 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(07-05-2014 07:05 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  No. The meaning of life is to contribute to the better evolution of humanity.
That's the meaning that you apply to life. It is also the meaning I apply to my life. Not everyone applies the same meaning to their own life.
I was never taught that - how did you come to acknowledge it?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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07-05-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(07-05-2014 10:15 AM)living thing Wrote:  Unfortunately, people in my surroundings seem more prone to idolising the "greatest" murderers.
Entertainment.

(07-05-2014 10:15 AM)living thing Wrote:  If people's memorability is related to the number of documents written about them, and if internet search engines provide any sort of objective representation of the number of documents written about stuff, then the following table may be a useful indicator of relative memorability in our "modern" (i.e., primitive) societies.
I do not believe that is the accurate measuring system for the theory you define - try Obama, Mandela, and Jon Stewart.
(07-05-2014 07:05 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Modern society does not memorialize the perpetrators of crimes against humanity - that is why we have developed the term and process of prosecuting the perpetrators.

(07-05-2014 10:15 AM)living thing Wrote:  Despite your claim, there seem to be human beings out there who find in causing a massacre their ticket to stardom.
They are inspired by the Columbine perpetrators, but they are motivated by their frustrated desire to change society - they believe society is unfair and believe that they will shock the community to reorganize into a just community.
(07-05-2014 07:05 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  The perpetrators are not motivated by the claim of causing the most destruction - they are motivated by the belief/claim to cause the most good for humanity.

(07-05-2014 10:15 AM)living thing Wrote:  If we manage to kill everyone around us, then no one will be able to remember us.
Destroying all of humanity is not their goal - eliminating the irrelevant and burdensome is a ploy.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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07-05-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(06-05-2014 12:34 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I would love to see what you have that is so much better, please, enlighten me.

Don't want to give me any credit - do you?

I'm years ahead of you.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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