The importance of being remembered
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22-05-2014, 01:21 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(22-05-2014 04:55 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(20-05-2014 07:34 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I like the butterfly effect. Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but it's very true for life. No matter how insignificant you are, you have effected countless people's lives and have altered the course of history. I think the goal of life is to try and alter it the best you can for what you feel is right. Just because your genes won't last in the family gene pool for more than 800 years, doesn't mean your decisions and actions in the here and now won't affect a later generation.
I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread, thanks for bringing it up.

Even though I mostly agree with what I think you are saying, I have a question. Can the course of history be altered? I mean, is history history before it has happened? If history is the story of what has happened up to the present moment, I'm not sure it can be changed. Or would you say history is the story of what happens over time, including future possibilities?

You are right that history only includes only up to the present, but then, when is present? Is at the time of me writing this? When you read it? When this thread is dug up a month from now by a random member? It's all perception. The phrase (how I used it at least), just includes any point the present may be at the perception of the reader, or what could have been vs what is. Make sense?

(22-05-2014 04:55 AM)living thing Wrote:  Also, while my set of genes will probably decay drastically within the next 50 years, I'm not sure the genes coding for histones will have changed in people living 1000 years from now, if there are people living 1000 years from now. But I'll never know.

Thanks Ryan, have fun!

I meant your genes that are passed on to your offspring. I think I read in this thread how they only last 800 years? If not then somewhere, I'm not sure of the validity of the statement, but the point is more or less that while your physical genes will not last, your decisions will. Whether known or unknown, big or small; every person makes a difference. Some people just want to make a bigger splash Smile

The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear."
~Jiddu Krishnamurti
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22-05-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
Young buck is all over the board.
(05-05-2014 08:49 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I don't see the point in leaving a legacy when a legacy can die just the same, just with a little longer lifespan. To me it's about the here and now; live for the moment because that's all you have.
(20-05-2014 07:34 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I like the butterfly effect. Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but it's very true for life. No matter how insignificant you are, you have effected countless people's lives and have altered the course of history. I think the goal of life is to try and alter it the best you can for what you feel is right.

I hope you're not wasting your giz, like me - the world needs your brilliant genes. Laugh out load

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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22-05-2014, 02:37 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(22-05-2014 02:02 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Young buck is all over the board.
(05-05-2014 08:49 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I don't see the point in leaving a legacy when a legacy can die just the same, just with a little longer lifespan. To me it's about the here and now; live for the moment because that's all you have.
(20-05-2014 07:34 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I like the butterfly effect. Not sure if it's been mentioned here before, but it's very true for life. No matter how insignificant you are, you have effected countless people's lives and have altered the course of history. I think the goal of life is to try and alter it the best you can for what you feel is right.

I hope you're not wasting your giz, like me - the world needs your brilliant genes. Laugh out load

I am only responsible for what I type, not for what you understand. If you'd like an explanation, then ask. Otherwise, you're an idiot.

The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear."
~Jiddu Krishnamurti
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22-05-2014, 05:47 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
Hello again Ryan, welcome back.

(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  You are right that history only includes only up to the present but then, when is present? Is at the time of me writing this? When you read it? When this thread is dug up a month from now by a random member? It's all perception.
Well I may be right but not necessarily; you've posed some good questions in relation to it. Let us imagine for a second that the present occurs at the time of you writing some text, is it when you type in the first character, or when you type in the last? It is funny how the present seems to have no duration, yet it is always the present.

I might be completely wrong but I would say that in the real universe (in the set of information that appears in space), the present is the durationless instant during which material structures precisely exist (when they occupy some precise volume located somewhere in relation to one another). By contrast, in the virtual universe (in the set of information that appears over time), it is the non-zero interval during which processes occur (when change happens). So even though in reality the present is an instantaneous notion (now reality is at some state, now at some different state), from my perspective of a virtual thing it is fairly continuous; it is the sum of all my lived moments and the transitions between them.

(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  The phrase (how I used it at least), just includes any point the present may be at the perception of the reader, or what could have been vs what is. Make sense?
I think it does; you were using the expression ("the course of history") in a general sense, not in relation to any specific instant. That is more or less what I meant by "the story of what happens over time, including future possibilities".

(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I meant your genes that are passed on to your offspring. I think I read in this thread how they only last 800 years? If not then somewhere, I'm not sure of the validity of the statement
The stability of our genes depends not only on environmental factors, but also on their function. Genes that code for histones (proteins that help pack DNA into chromosomes prior to the cell's division) are highly conserved across different species of eukaryotic cells and even certain bacteria. However, some portions of the genes that code for immunoglobulins (the proteins that make up our antibodies) mutate at such a high rate that they typically differ from one of your lymphocytes to another. That is how your immune system manages to react to such a wide array of potentially harmful structures using a fairly compact set of genes.

I wasn't arguing against your suggestion, I was just intrigued by it.

(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  but the point is more or less that while your physical genes will not last, your decisions will.
I think I agree with you if we can replace the word "will" with "may"; while our physical genes may not last, our decisions may. But our decisions can also be inconsequential and our genes can last for very long intervals.

(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Whether known or unknown, big or small; every person makes a difference. Some people just want to make a bigger splash Smile
We're always competing amongst ourselves for the stupidest things, aren't we?

I think I once again agree with you; whether remembered or forgotten, we can all be relevant in our surroundings and, if some people seem more important than others, it is often because we give them more importance than they intrinsically have. The long-term survival of humanity and life in general is such a tremendously difficult task, that it will require the cooperation of as many living beings as possible; every effort is important.

So I thank you again for your efforts at our mutual understanding! Mutual understanding is the necessary first step towards mutual cooperation.

Have a good time!
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22-05-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  Hello again Ryan, welcome back.

(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  You are right that history only includes only up to the present but then, when is present? Is at the time of me writing this? When you read it? When this thread is dug up a month from now by a random member? It's all perception.
Well I may be right but not necessarily; you've posed some good questions in relation to it. Let us imagine for a second that the present occurs at the time of you writing some text, is it when you type in the first character, or when you type in the last? It is funny how the present seems to have no duration, yet it is always the present.

I might be completely wrong but I would say that in the real universe (in the set of information that appears in space), the present is the durationless instant during which material structures precisely exist (when they occupy some precise volume located somewhere in relation to one another). By contrast, in the virtual universe (in the set of information that appears over time), it is the non-zero interval during which processes occur (when change happens). So even though in reality the present is an instantaneous notion (now reality is at some state, now at some different state), from my perspective of a virtual thing it is fairly continuous; it is the sum of all my lived moments and the transitions between them.

No disagreements here. I was trying to explain what you did, but your explanation is better lol

(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  The phrase (how I used it at least), just includes any point the present may be at the perception of the reader, or what could have been vs what is. Make sense?
I think it does; you were using the expression ("the course of history") in a general sense, not in relation to any specific instant. That is more or less what I meant by "the story of what happens over time, including future possibilities".

Yes, exactly; thank you.

(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I meant your genes that are passed on to your offspring. I think I read in this thread how they only last 800 years? If not then somewhere, I'm not sure of the validity of the statement
The stability of our genes depends not only on environmental factors, but also on their function. Genes that code for histones (proteins that help pack DNA into chromosomes prior to the cell's division) are highly conserved across different species of eukaryotic cells and even certain bacteria. However, some portions of the genes that code for immunoglobulins (the proteins that make up our antibodies) mutate at such a high rate that they typically differ from one of your lymphocytes to another. That is how your immune system manages to react to such a wide array of potentially harmful structures using a fairly compact set of genes.

I wasn't arguing against your suggestion, I was just intrigued by it.

I know you weren't arguing, I was just trying to explain myself better. I have no clue how long genes last or why. Enjoyed your explanation.

(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  but the point is more or less that while your physical genes will not last, your decisions will.
I think I agree with you if we can replace the word "will" with "may"; while our physical genes may not last, our decisions may. But our decisions can also be inconsequential and our genes can last for very long intervals.

Hmm, gonna have to disagree. Your decisions will always last, and here's my take on why:
Every decision you make impacts something. No matter how small; this goes back to the butterfly effect. Just because your decisions have no visible effect to you, doesn't mean they disappear. Your actions will always have reactions, and your decisions will affect future decisions and so forth.
So let's say you save a guyfrom getting hit by a bus. A year later the guy dies of cancer.
Question: Did your decision just, for lack of better words, die?
No, your decision has just affected the outcome of that person and everyone he will be in contact with in that last year.
This was more of an extreme example, but you can apply it to pretty much every decision you make. It's all cause and effect, but just because the effect was not intended, doesn't mean that it is any less "dead".

(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 01:21 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Whether known or unknown, big or small; every person makes a difference. Some people just want to make a bigger splash Smile
We're always competing amongst ourselves for the stupidest things, aren't we?

I think I once again agree with you; whether remembered or forgotten, we can all be relevant in our surroundings and, if some people seem more important than others, it is often because we give them more importance than they intrinsically have. The long-term survival of humanity and life in general is such a tremendously difficult task, that it will require the cooperation of as many living beings as possible; every effort is important.

Totally agree, but once a person has more value in the eyes of more people, wouldn't they effect more people? I don't think there is an "intrinsic" value, it's all perception...again lol Tongue

(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  So I thank you again for your efforts at our mutual understanding! Mutual understanding is the necessary first step towards mutual cooperation.

Have a good time!

Of course, I love this kind of conversion. Just exchanging ideas, without argument. The agreements are just a bonus, hopefully I conveyed my thoughts well enough to be understood... this post just seems lacking for some reason Consider

The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear."
~Jiddu Krishnamurti
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24-05-2014, 06:56 AM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2014 07:29 AM by living thing.)
RE: The importance of being remembered
Hello Ryan, how are you? I'm glad to read your words again.

(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  No disagreements here. I was trying to explain what you did, but your explanation is better lol
My explanation is different; not necessarily better. To begin with, yours was shorter.

(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I have no clue how long genes last or why.
I'd say they last because they have the ability to use information in order to increase their structural integrity. That abstract notion ("information can use information for the benefit of itself") may be the oldest one learned by any living thing and it already conveys concepts that characterise life from its beginning, such as selfishness or our ability to use stuff. But that might be a topic worth its own thread.

(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  ... while our physical genes may not last, our decisions may. But our decisions can also be inconsequential and our genes can last for very long intervals.
Hmm, gonna have to disagree. Your decisions will always last, and here's my take on why:
Every decision you make impacts something. No matter how small; this goes back to the butterfly effect. Just because your decisions have no visible effect to you, doesn't mean they disappear. Your actions will always have reactions, and your decisions will affect future decisions and so forth.
So let's say you save a guyfrom getting hit by a bus. A year later the guy dies of cancer.
Question: Did your decision just, for lack of better words, die?
No, your decision has just affected the outcome of that person and everyone he will be in contact with in that last year.
This was more of an extreme example, but you can apply it to pretty much every decision you make. It's all cause and effect, but just because the effect was not intended, doesn't mean that it is any less "dead".
It is good that we disagree; if our views were entirely the same, then neither of us would learn anything from the other's perspective.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think we may be viewing the so-called butterfly effect from opposite angles. You seem to view it from the butterfly towards the effect; that is, you seem to concentrate on how any action is likely to have one or more effects in the surrounding objects, which will in turn have other effects in their surroundings and so on, presumably exponentially. Thus, once conveniently amplified, any tiny action such as a butterfly flapping its wings in one side of the planet can have large consequences such as a storm developing on the other side of the planet.

I view it the other way around; from the effect towards the butterfly, meaning that if you trace a chain of causes and effects backwards, you often arrive to tiny contributing actions.

While my view implies that large effects may be caused, at least in part, by tiny causes, it does not imply that every tiny cause produces a significant effect because change does not just happen out of nothing. Pretty much every propagation of energy suffers from attenuation (its intensity decreases as it spreads outwards) so the effects of subsequent cycles of cause-effect become decreasingly intense unless the objects participating in the sequence receive energy from a different source. If you follow backwards the causes for a huge storm, the largest and most significant factors influencing it, other than the fact that we have a gaseous atmosphere and a liquid hydrosphere, are the heat irradiated by our nearest star and the fact that our planet rotates about its geographical north-south axis while it orbits around the sun, causing rectilinear motion along much of its surface to be deflected sideways.

If the butterfly does not flap its wings, it doesn't really matter because differences in air temperature, pressure and humidity will nevertheless occur in the planet's atmosphere; warm humid air rising from the oceans thanks to evaporation will produce regions of higher atmospheric pressure than their surroundings, causing a flow of air towards those regions of lower pressure, and that flow may be deflected sideways thanks to the planet's rotation, eventually producing large rotating systems of warm humid air that some people give feminine names. I suppose that tradition of blaming feminine entities for our disasters is part of our judeochristian culture (after all, who if not a woman is to blame for our original sin?) but the point here is that butterflies flapping their wings are largely irrelevant when it comes to storm formation.

The following experiment does not really illustrate anything because once actions happen in one way, it is difficult to tell how they would have happened if one of them had been different, but I will suggest it nevertheless, in case it helps understanding my point. Stand, if you wish, in the middle of a large room, with your arm and the fingers in your hand extended forward. Now choose one finger, whichever one you prefer, and bend it back. Do you think it makes a difference which finger you choose to bend? Will the behaviour of the universe be significantly different depending on your decision?

I would say that decisions can be inconsequential. In fact, I did say it. But they may not be, this is just how I view things, so please don't take this as a suggestion that you are mistaken.

(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 05:47 PM)living thing Wrote:  whether remembered or forgotten, we can all be relevant in our surroundings and, if some people seem more important than others, it is often because we give them more importance than they intrinsically have.
Totally agree, but once a person has more value in the eyes of more people, wouldn't they effect more people? I don't think there is an "intrinsic" value, it's all perception...again lol Tongue
Then I guess you don't totally agree, he he, but that is fine.

I do find an intrinsic value in people's ability to perform relevant actions (actions that do cause significant differences), because those actions can be very beneficial for people around them. But that ability is not just perceptual; the set of your skills does not depend on how I perceive them. In fact, even if I didn't know of your existence, you wouldn't lose your capabilities.

Many people seem to think others are worth the money they make, they idolise those who accumulate the largest fortunes and try to emulate them; that is one way people may become influential. If someone who is really really good at kicking a ball and placing it between two sticks, making loads of money in the process, begins wearing some coloured rubber wristband because the manufacturer pays him or her to wear it, other people who see the sportsperson as an example of success will typically begin wearing the wristbands too, increasing the manufacturer's revenue and possibly his or her own self-esteem, if it is a person who thinks people are worth their income.

But being able to play some sport wonderfully does not really provide the greatest usefulness to humanity; yes, the genes of good football players are selected among the common pool of human genes, but I don't think humanity will defend itself from asteroids by kicking them outwards. We're managing to select the most randomly stupid genes.

That is why I suggested that we give some people more relevance than they intrinsically have. But that obviously depends on my subjective perception of the intrinsic value of human beings, so as you say, it may all be perception.

(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I love this kind of conversion. Just exchanging ideas, without argument.
That is how I like them too.

Our views are subjective, depending not only on the location from which we observe the universe around us but also on the set of notions that our brains have memorised in our previous interactions with reality. Subjective concepts may be true from one perspective while being false from others, so I find it stupid when I encounter two people arguing about their perspectives. If one person is looking at a cone from its side while another is looking at it from directly above, and the following conversation takes place...

Person 1: Cones look like triangles.
Person 2: You're wrong. Cones look like circles.
Person 1: No, you're wrong. Cones look like triangles!
Person 2: No, you're wrong. Cones look like circles!

... I draw the conclusion that I am watching two stupid people who don't even understand the notion of subjectivity and who are about to enter an endless loop.

Exchanging subjective views is useful because we can arrive at objective notions by combining subjective ones: the shape of cones when their images are projected onto our retinas depends on the location from which we look at them. That is why I am interested in learning other people's perspectives; I'd like to combine them with my own in order to hopefully arrive to less subjective conclusions.

But trying to convince others that one's view should be considered true from their perspectives is silly; it is just a wish for one's subjective view to be taken as an objective truth. I don't know if I'm right, and thus I don't know if alternative views are wrong; I don't think my explanations are better than others even when they may be different. I share my thoughts because I think exchanging subjective views can be useful for others too, but I have no interest in anyone believing what I say, so I am not offended when people don't. Why should other people trust my words? I don't generally trust other people's words.

So please feel free to disagree with me in any respect because I welcome disagreement as a chance to learn where the mistakes in my thoughts may lie. In any case, it is a pleasure to chat with you.

Have good fun!

(Edit: fixed grammatical error)
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26-05-2014, 10:55 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(24-05-2014 06:56 AM)living thing Wrote:  Hello Ryan, how are you? I'm glad to read your words again.

I'm actually doing quite well; in pretty good spirits lately, yourself? Smile

(24-05-2014 06:56 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  No disagreements here. I was trying to explain what you did, but your explanation is better lol
My explanation is different; not necessarily better. To begin with, yours was shorter.

I found your explanation "better" because you went into a more in depth explanation, though I see your point.

(24-05-2014 06:56 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I have no clue how long genes last or why.
I'd say they last because they have the ability to use information in order to increase their structural integrity. That abstract notion ("information can use information for the benefit of itself") may be the oldest one learned by any living thing and it already conveys concepts that characterise life from its beginning, such as selfishness or our ability to use stuff. But that might be a topic worth its own thread.

I'd read it Thumbsup

(24-05-2014 06:56 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Hmm, gonna have to disagree. Your decisions will always last, and here's my take on why:
Every decision you make impacts something. No matter how small; this goes back to the butterfly effect. Just because your decisions have no visible effect to you, doesn't mean they disappear. Your actions will always have reactions, and your decisions will affect future decisions and so forth.
So let's say you save a guyfrom getting hit by a bus. A year later the guy dies of cancer.
Question: Did your decision just, for lack of better words, die?
No, your decision has just affected the outcome of that person and everyone he will be in contact with in that last year.
This was more of an extreme example, but you can apply it to pretty much every decision you make. It's all cause and effect, but just because the effect was not intended, doesn't mean that it is any less "dead".
It is good that we disagree; if our views were entirely the same, then neither of us would learn anything from the other's perspective.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think we may be viewing the so-called butterfly effect from opposite angles. You seem to view it from the butterfly towards the effect; that is, you seem to concentrate on how any action is likely to have one or more effects in the surrounding objects, which will in turn have other effects in their surroundings and so on, presumably exponentially. Thus, once conveniently amplified, any tiny action such as a butterfly flapping its wings in one side of the planet can have large consequences such as a storm developing on the other side of the planet.

I view it the other way around; from the effect towards the butterfly, meaning that if you trace a chain of causes and effects backwards, you often arrive to tiny contributing actions.

While my view implies that large effects may be caused, at least in part, by tiny causes, it does not imply that every tiny cause produces a significant effect because change does not just happen out of nothing. Pretty much every propagation of energy suffers from attenuation (its intensity decreases as it spreads outwards) so the effects of subsequent cycles of cause-effect become decreasingly intense unless the objects participating in the sequence receive energy from a different source. If you follow backwards the causes for a huge storm, the largest and most significant factors influencing it, other than the fact that we have a gaseous atmosphere and a liquid hydrosphere, are the heat irradiated by our nearest star and the fact that our planet rotates about its geographical north-south axis while it orbits around the sun, causing rectilinear motion along much of its surface to be deflected sideways.

If the butterfly does not flap its wings, it doesn't really matter because differences in air temperature, pressure and humidity will nevertheless occur in the planet's atmosphere; warm humid air rising from the oceans thanks to evaporation will produce regions of higher atmospheric pressure than their surroundings, causing a flow of air towards those regions of lower pressure, and that flow may be deflected sideways thanks to the planet's rotation, eventually producing large rotating systems of warm humid air that some people give feminine names. I suppose that tradition of blaming feminine entities for our disasters is part of our judeochristian culture (after all, who if not a woman is to blame for our original sin?) but the point here is that butterflies flapping their wings are largely irrelevant when it comes to storm formation.

The following experiment does not really illustrate anything because once actions happen in one way, it is difficult to tell how they would have happened if one of them had been different, but I will suggest it nevertheless, in case it helps understanding my point. Stand, if you wish, in the middle of a large room, with your arm and the fingers in your hand extended forward. Now choose one finger, whichever one you prefer, and bend it back. Do you think it makes a difference which finger you choose to bend? Will the behaviour of the universe be significantly different depending on your decision?

I would say that decisions can be inconsequential. In fact, I did say it. But they may not be, this is just how I view things, so please don't take this as a suggestion that you are mistaken.

I'm not sure why, but I'm grinning like an idiot after reading this section. You have a great understanding of my view and you explain yours quite well. There's just one problem I have with how you view the butterfly effect; if you start with the effect and work towards the cause, I believe you are selling yourself short.
Your conclusion, in this case the effect in question, is not wrong, but when you work backwards you tend to miss all the little causes that really make up the effect. Sure you have a few major causes, but just because another cause is smaller doesn't mean it's insignificant.
I'm not saying that a butterfly flapping its wings in the US causes a tornado in China per say, but for sake of argument, it can change a variable in which said tornado acts. Even if it makes the tornado start a second earlier, that could save/destroy lives, if it moves an inch to the left, that could save/destroy homes, etc; in which cases, that butterfly just effected all those people/homes.
Your way is better for spotting the major causes of effects, but I think my way is better at explaining why the effect happened the way it did. I can't help but think of the scientific method. Your way is what forms the hypothesis, my way is what explains the variables of the test in question Tongue

(24-05-2014 06:56 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  Totally agree, but once a person has more value in the eyes of more people, wouldn't they effect more people? I don't think there is an "intrinsic" value, it's all perception...again lol Tongue
Then I guess you don't totally agree, he he, but that is fine.

I do find an intrinsic value in people's ability to perform relevant actions (actions that do cause significant differences), because those actions can be very beneficial for people around them. But that ability is not just perceptual; the set of your skills does not depend on how I perceive them. In fact, even if I didn't know of your existence, you wouldn't lose your capabilities.

Many people seem to think others are worth the money they make, they idolise those who accumulate the largest fortunes and try to emulate them; that is one way people may become influential. If someone who is really really good at kicking a ball and placing it between two sticks, making loads of money in the process, begins wearing some coloured rubber wristband because the manufacturer pays him or her to wear it, other people who see the sportsperson as an example of success will typically begin wearing the wristbands too, increasing the manufacturer's revenue and possibly his or her own self-esteem, if it is a person who thinks people are worth their income.

But being able to play some sport wonderfully does not really provide the greatest usefulness to humanity; yes, the genes of good football players are selected among the common pool of human genes, but I don't think humanity will defend itself from asteroids by kicking them outwards. We're managing to select the most randomly stupid genes.

That is why I suggested that we give some people more relevance than they intrinsically have. But that obviously depends on my subjective perception of the intrinsic value of human beings, so as you say, it may all be perception.

Good points, I'd like to revise my previous statement to include yours:
Intrinsic value depends on the relevance of the skill the person in question has to the person authoring the question in the first place.

In my original statement I equated this to perception, but I now see this is not really the case. I actually don't know what this would be called to be honest Laugh out load

(24-05-2014 06:56 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-05-2014 06:42 PM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  I love this kind of conversion. Just exchanging ideas, without argument.
That is how I like them too.

Our views are subjective, depending not only on the location from which we observe the universe around us but also on the set of notions that our brains have memorised in our previous interactions with reality. Subjective concepts may be true from one perspective while being false from others, so I find it stupid when I encounter two people arguing about their perspectives. If one person is looking at a cone from its side while another is looking at it from directly above, and the following conversation takes place...

Person 1: Cones look like triangles.
Person 2: You're wrong. Cones look like circles.
Person 1: No, you're wrong. Cones look like triangles!
Person 2: No, you're wrong. Cones look like circles!

... I draw the conclusion that I am watching two stupid people who don't even understand the notion of subjectivity and who are about to enter an endless loop.

Exchanging subjective views is useful because we can arrive at objective notions by combining subjective ones: the shape of cones when their images are projected onto our retinas depends on the location from which we look at them. That is why I am interested in learning other people's perspectives; I'd like to combine them with my own in order to hopefully arrive to less subjective conclusions.

But trying to convince others that one's view should be considered true from their perspectives is silly; it is just a wish for one's subjective view to be taken as an objective truth. I don't know if I'm right, and thus I don't know if alternative views are wrong; I don't think my explanations are better than others even when they may be different. I share my thoughts because I think exchanging subjective views can be useful for others too, but I have no interest in anyone believing what I say, so I am not offended when people don't. Why should other people trust my words? I don't generally trust other people's words.

So please feel free to disagree with me in any respect because I welcome disagreement as a chance to learn where the mistakes in my thoughts may lie. In any case, it is a pleasure to chat with you.

Have good fun!

I can totally respect that kind of approach to ideas, and I try to mimic that the best I can while in other debates/discussions. Admittedly, that doesn't always go well, but I try! I'm sure I'll get better with age. Once again, I'd just like to say that I am enjoying this discussion tremendously and look forward to your reply Big Grin

(I'm also curious if anyone besides the two of us is taking the time to read through our long responses, the average attention span here is that of a gold fish lol)

The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear."
~Jiddu Krishnamurti
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28-05-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
Hello Ryan, sorry for the delay in my reply. I don’t have as much time as I’d want to, these days. Time may be infinite from the perspective of the universe as a whole, but for us things that appear between a beginning and an end, time is definitely not infinite.

I’m pretty well, thank you, and I’m glad that you are doing well too. The enjoyment of this conversation is mutual; I wish every other chat were an exchange of views from which we could all extract useful notions, not a boxing ring where two opponents must intellectually crush each other. Knowledge is a cooperative effort and I very much appreciate your good spirits even when we have differing views.

I also appreciate your fairness when you try to find advantages in my view and not only in yours, although I am once again uncomfortable with the term “better”. I don’t think there is an objective notion of better; each one of us finds a set of things better than another set for a variety of personal reasons. But I think it can be objectively said that some of our views are different, so I prefer using that adjective when comparing them; I’d say let whoever may read this conversation decide what he or she finds better based on their own understanding. Or maybe there is no one else reading this thread, it does not really matter.

But I’m not sure we can carry on this conversation any further without repeating things we’ve already said (although please feel free to add anything else you may think of) however I’m looking forward to learning your view about many other subjects.

Meanwhile, have a great time. Thanks again for this conversation!
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29-05-2014, 10:00 PM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(05-05-2014 07:09 AM)War Horse Wrote:  For me its not a matter of being remembered, I've done nothing in my life worth remembering , so I really dont expect it or care much.

The thing that grinds on me is, that all the things that I've held dear and have meant something to me in my life, will be scattered to the four winds or thrown in the trash by someone unknown. I have no direct offspring and no family any younger than I.

I sometimes wish that I could leave all my stuff to somebody that would care about it, but allas, theres no one.

In the end , mine is a life that has had no meaning, other than to survive.... not one to be remembered and I wouldnt be that arrogant to presume as much.

Did that make any sense ?

Very much so. And all is right with the world. ... Oh and I'll keep your bikes and cars and stuff maintained for you. Big Grin




I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
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30-05-2014, 06:08 AM
RE: The importance of being remembered
(29-05-2014 10:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Very much so. And all is right with the world. ... Oh and I'll keep your bikes and cars and stuff maintained for you. Big Grin

What a guy ! But you'll need to wait till I'm worm food to get the bike. Tongue

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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