The indigenous people of North America
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24-01-2014, 05:22 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2014 05:35 PM by Marozz.)
RE: The indigenous people of North America
(24-01-2014 05:18 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  I might have an incomplete picture of the situation on the American continent.

But from what I read in papers here, the main concerns of the native Americans is poverty and alcoholism resulting out of racial discrimination and former segregation.

Indeed, and this is were those concerned should focus their energy. Changing a name will not help with such problems.

“The first duty of a man is to think for himself” ― José Martí
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24-01-2014, 05:31 PM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
(24-01-2014 05:18 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  I might have an incomplete picture of the situation on the American continent.

But from what I read in papers here, the main concerns of the native Americans is poverty and alcoholism resulting out of racial discrimination and former segregation.

You are quite right, but put yourself in their position. Suppose some other nation invaded and conquered Germany, killed most of your people, took all the best land and resources for themselves, and confined the remaining few native people on reservations located on the poorest land. You, as a member of the native population, would have lots of serious problems. But would that make it perfectly OK for the conquering people to give their sports teams names like Krauts and Nazis, complete with a grinning Hitler caricature as a team logo/mascot? You wouldn't find that offensive?
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24-01-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
(24-01-2014 05:18 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  I might have an incomplete picture of the situation on the American continent.

But from what I read in papers here, the main concerns of the native Americans is poverty and alcoholism resulting out of racial discrimination and former segregation.

There is no real solution to those problems, TGAC. Getting all worked up over a nickname though is seen as something "doable." Of course, if the Redskins change their name to Foreskins ( in honor of all the pricks in Washington ) the next day the Indians will still be sitting on their reservations drinking beer and saying "now what?"

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24-01-2014, 06:02 PM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
(24-01-2014 05:31 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You are quite right, but put yourself in their position. Suppose some other nation invaded and conquered Germany, killed most of your people, took all the best land and resources for themselves, and confined the remaining few native people on reservations located on the poorest land. You, as a member of the native population, would have lots of serious problems. But would that make it perfectly OK for the conquering people to give their sports teams names like Krauts and Nazis, complete with a grinning Hitler caricature as a team logo/mascot? You wouldn't find that offensive?

I am German. I can travel all arround the world and be suspected of anything. The Brits generaly despise us, in Poland we are legaly barred from buying land, in Spain they always hope we dont stay and even the Irish ..... and whe didnt even bomb them.

Only when we go to Egypt, Tunisia, Quatar, Dubai or France, people welcome us with open arms and smiling faces.

And if you ask them why, they reply "We like what you did to the jews."

*sigh

No I wouldnt find a Hitler mascot offensive, because I am offensive and I would find it German.

And ours and their situation is not compareable.

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24-01-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
(24-01-2014 06:02 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 05:31 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You are quite right, but put yourself in their position. Suppose some other nation invaded and conquered Germany, killed most of your people, took all the best land and resources for themselves, and confined the remaining few native people on reservations located on the poorest land. You, as a member of the native population, would have lots of serious problems. But would that make it perfectly OK for the conquering people to give their sports teams names like Krauts and Nazis, complete with a grinning Hitler caricature as a team logo/mascot? You wouldn't find that offensive?

I am German. I can travel all arround the world and be suspected of anything. The Brits generaly despise us, in Poland we are legaly barred from buying land, in Spain they always hope we dont stay and even the Irish ..... and whe didnt even bomb them.

Only when we go to Egypt, Tunisia, Quatar, Dubai or France, people welcome us with open arms and smiling faces.

And if you ask them why, they reply "We like what you did to the jews."

*sigh

No I wouldnt find a Hitler mascot offensive, because I am offensive and I would find it German.

And ours and their situation is not compareable.
I disagree with your point about the Irish, I have German friends and in general the Irish have no problem with Germany. Dublin was bombed in WW2 by Germany, it was an "accident". Somehow we managed to blame the English.

My country was invaded and conquered by another nation, the land was taken from us, many died from famine etc... if they called a team The Drunken Irish or some such nonsense, it would be the least of my worries.

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25-01-2014, 07:56 AM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
I think the issue has to do with a sense of identity. The Native Americans were the victims of what was really a massive ethnic cleansing campaign. No one likes to call it that, but that's really what it was. We slaughtered these people wholesale, some of it by accident and some of it by design. We starved them, we gave them blankets riddled with small pox, and we just flat out murdered them. And, while all this was going on, and for generations after, we portrayed them as the bad guys. The westersn of the 1940s and 1950s all had the calvary coming over the hill to resuce the settles from the violent, murderous indians. That is how it's always been portrayed. We were always the good guys, they were always the bad guys. We trumped up their war like nature and savagry in the media of the time and then later in pop culture and we creted an image of these people as murderous savages. We forced them into reservations, claiming it was for their safety but really to keep them out of our way, and then later we celebrated their savagry by giving their names to our sports teams. And, there are people who claim this was done to "celebrate" their culture. It wasn't done to celebrate them and, for the most part, it wasn't even their culture. It was our made up version of who they are.

Yes, poverty and alcoholism are far bigger problems for these people, but I think there is some connection between how you envision yourself and those other problems. And, how can they not envision themselves negatively when they are consistently protrayed as such. The complains about it just being rampant political correctness are usually coming form the people who have always been able to make jokes at the expense of others. I don't particularly care if the Washington Redskin keep their name or if the Florida State Seminals or the Atlanta Braves keep their stupi tomahawk chop, but I am certainly not going to take a shot at someone who does and who fights to change it.

For anyone who is interested in the topic of how badly the US screwed over the natives, I recommend reading "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown. Fantastic book. Don't waste your time with the stupid HBO movie. Read the book. The book is awesome. The movie is for really lazy people and not as good.

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25-01-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
BnW, you make many good points in your post. Indeed many terrible things happened to the Native American population, and still do, I'm sure. If they believe that changing the name of a football team will help their cause, good luck to them.
It seems to be causing a lot of debate in the US. If enough pressure is put on the Redskins to change their name, it will change, though I fear this pressure will probably come from some government agency or another.

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25-01-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
I wouldn't say it's causing a "lot" of debate. It's been a minor topic of discussion the past 30 or so years where every now and again some group asks the Redskins to change their name and they refuse. There is some stuff in the press about how racist it is and then it goes away. Rinse. Repeat.

The Atlanta Braves recently brought back their "Screaming Savage" logo:

[Image: Story.jpg]

I guess they resented not being part of a controversy. Btw, that's not the official name.

And, the Cleveland Indians are considering putting their Chief Waahoo logo into semi-retirement:

[Image: Chief-Wahoo.jpg]

Are these things offensive? I guess that is a matter of perspective. And, if they are, should we change them? I don't have a strong opinion either way. Personally, I have no interest in buying either teams logos. Aside from not having a rooting interest for either team I have no interest in contributing revenue to an entity that is seeking to profit of another groups misery. That is my choice, and I suspect that over time market forces will resolve these logo and branding issues. This is an instance where I'm going to agree with Frank and say force is definetely not the answer.

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29-01-2014, 11:28 PM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
(24-01-2014 03:05 PM)weekendskp Wrote:  Are the indigenous people of North America really offended by sports mascots? I don't hear Scandinavian people complaining about the Minnesota Vikings; why is there such a stink about the Atlanta Braves, or the Washington Redskins?

Who knows? Who even cares anymore? I see people starting to use "nigger" and "retarded" and every other taboo term on a regular basis in recent years. I think people are sick of excessive PC and no longer care much. It's starting to be a badge of honor to intentionally violate the taboos, which is a shame, because at it's core, PC is about respect for other people. But it's gone too far and become too much of a burden in everyday conversation.

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30-01-2014, 12:05 AM
RE: The indigenous people of North America
Possible NSWF content ahead; enter at your own risk. Angel


(25-01-2014 07:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  The westersn of the 1940s and 1950s all had the calvary coming over the hill to resuce the settles from the violent, murderous indians.
*westerns
*rescue
*Indians

(25-01-2014 07:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  We trumped up their war like nature and savagry in the media of the time and then later in pop culture and we creted an image of these people as murderous savages.
*savagery
*created

(25-01-2014 07:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  We forced them into reservations, claiming it was for their safety but really to keep them out of our way, and then later we celebrated their savagry by giving their names to our sports teams.
*savagery

(25-01-2014 07:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  And, how can they not envision themselves negatively when they are consistently protrayed as such.
*portrayed

(25-01-2014 07:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  I don't particularly care if the Washington Redskin keep their name or if the Florida State Seminals or the Atlanta Braves keep their stupi tomahawk chop, but I am certainly not going to take a shot at someone who does and who fights to change it.
*Seminoles
*stupid

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