The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
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10-12-2012, 02:28 PM
The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
I will not be discussing the conspiracy theory that the U.S. conspired to begin attacking Afghansitan only after 9-11 and that the reasons for the attack on Afghanistan were because of 9-11.

Apparently the U.S. was planning on attacking Afghanistan before 9-11 and this was due to the inability to reach a deal on an oil pipeline. The Taliban was seen as a possible stable government that the U.S. could use to build a pipeline through, then talks were beginning to break down partly due to other key players attempting to secure a pipeline. The U.S. shortly before 9-11 began to see the Taliban as less trustworthy to secure a pipeline that would benefit american companies instead of other countries that were negotiating with the Taliban for an oil pipeline.

At one point very shortly before 9-11 in a last ditch effort to secure a pipeline deal an american representative said to the Taliban...either accept our carpet of gold or we will bury you under a carpet of bombs.

Here is a timeline of events in the pipeline negotiations with the Taliban: Also note that even shortly after 9-11 and before the U.S. invasion the U.S. was even holding last negotiations with the Taliban on an oil pipeline.

http://www.gasandoil.com/news/n_america/...d6bb11264d
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10-12-2012, 04:07 PM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
You're passionate, that can be a positive asset. But know your audience, or they may kick you out ... as I remember there being a lengthy thread on that very thing.

Maybe reword future political topics to include religious angles? "Was the invasion of Afghanistan really to curb religious extremism?"
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10-12-2012, 09:21 PM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
Alright I'll give you a second chance, but only because someone seems crazier then you right now.

Afghanistan was a total shit storm prior to 9/11.

Osama and friends had effectively taken over the country. He was certainly acting like he owned the place.
He'd go to the Middle East and talk to politicians like he owned the place etc..
So this got the ACTUAL leader a tad annoyed. Probably to the point of potential civil war, but that's just speculation. This is why Afghan troops are also fighting on the side of America. The leader of Afghanistan welcomed American troops.
If anything, the Afghanistan war makes the most sense of the whole shit storm related to Osama and 9/11 etc..

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11-12-2012, 05:57 AM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
http://rt.com/usa/news/karzai-us-afghan-president-546/

Quote:Afghan President Hamid Karzai on Thursday criticized US tactics in Afghanistan, accusing American and NATO forces of contributing to the violence and corruption in his country.

Quote:The bigger corruption is the corruption in contracts. The contracts are not issued by the Afghan government. The contracts are issued by the international community, mainly by the United States," he said. "Now whether this corruption in Afghanistan is an accident, a byproduct of the situation in the past 10 years or is it perpetrated also on purpose is today my main question"

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11-12-2012, 06:10 AM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
(10-12-2012 09:21 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Alright I'll give you a second chance, but only because someone seems crazier then you right now.

Afghanistan was a total shit storm prior to 9/11.

Osama and friends had effectively taken over the country. He was certainly acting like he owned the place.
He'd go to the Middle East and talk to politicians like he owned the place etc..
So this got the ACTUAL leader a tad annoyed. Probably to the point of potential civil war, but that's just speculation. This is why Afghan troops are also fighting on the side of America. The leader of Afghanistan welcomed American troops.
If anything, the Afghanistan war makes the most sense of the whole shit storm related to Osama and 9/11 etc..
Yes the social, political and economic structure of Afghanistan since the U.S. kicked those evil commies out with all their women in politics and atheist evilness was certainly a clusterfuck.

Bin Laden nor was any other group in control of Afghanistan for some time, it was in constant civil war, the Taliban and the Northern Alliance were in a civil war, at the time the Taliban was our favorites that the west helped propped up. Ironically after the U.S. invaded they used many of the Northern Alliance leaders to help defeat the Taliban and to eventually put some of the Northern Alliance peeps into positions of power. The Northern Alliance were like the tribal/muslim nut jobs while the taliban were less tribal/muslim nut jobs and members of both are known to have many "former" (wink wink) alqaeda fighters.

The U.S. up until weeks before 9-11 and even a couple of times after 9-11 before the invasion were in negotiations with the Taliban about putting an oil pipeline in that country and were more than willing to overlook any terrorist ties to Bin Laden or human rights in Afghanistan. Days before 9-11 when the U.S. still negotiating with the Taliban and threatening them with a carpet of bombs if they don't accept the U.S. pipeline deal Bin Laden was in a Pakistan military hospital getting kidney dialysis treatment according to U.S. reports. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OW4A-yd9BI Bin Laden certainly was not leading any kind of government or in any kind of power in Afghanistan.
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11-12-2012, 06:26 AM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
Quote:Yes the social, political and economic structure of Afghanistan since
the U.S. kicked those evil commies out with all their women in politics
and atheist evilness was certainly a clusterfuck.

Hey, a clusterfuck is a clusterfuck.

Besides, Afghanistan has always been a clusterfuck (that whole middle eastern region).
I think you will find that it was actually equal if not superior to the Western world (europe in the case) right up to the point of the Mongol Empire. The Timurid's in particular for Afghanistan. The Timurid's literally killed and flattened all in their wake. The region hasn't really recovered since, not to a state that it was prior (that being rather a nice place for a holiday, now.. not so much).
So just to put this out there that to blame the Yanks for the clusterfuck that is that region isn't accurate. The shit with China didn't help I image, wait was that Afghanistan? Maybe the small one starting with T next to Afghanistan. I dunno, if I cared enough I'd probably know.

Anyway, blah blah, what does this oil pipeline have to do with me?

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11-12-2012, 06:50 AM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
(11-12-2012 06:26 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Yes the social, political and economic structure of Afghanistan since
the U.S. kicked those evil commies out with all their women in politics
and atheist evilness was certainly a clusterfuck.

Hey, a clusterfuck is a clusterfuck.

Besides, Afghanistan has always been a clusterfuck (that whole middle eastern region).
I think you will find that it was actually equal if not superior to the Western world (europe in the case) right up to the point of the Mongol Empire. The Timurid's in particular for Afghanistan. The Timurid's literally killed and flattened all in their wake. The region hasn't really recovered since, not to a state that it was prior (that being rather a nice place for a holiday, now.. not so much).
So just to put this out there that to blame the Yanks for the clusterfuck that is that region isn't accurate. The shit with China didn't help I image, wait was that Afghanistan? Maybe the small one starting with T next to Afghanistan. I dunno, if I cared enough I'd probably know.

Anyway, blah blah, what does this oil pipeline have to do with me?
Actually, since you claimed that Afghanistan and that whole region has always been a clusterfuck I decided to look up pictures of Afghanistan decades ago, during the 50's and 60's. The king of Afghanistan at the time was like the Yugoslavian Leader Tito, he was too leftist according to the west but not leftist enough for the Soviet Union so he was able to play both sides. The pictures of Afghanistan under a controlled/highly regulated economy that leaned socialist and was ruled by a king are very horrible pictures. Just horrible.... http://englishrussia.com/2011/07/21/the-...e-50s-60s/

Warning: these pictures of Afghanistan under a highly controlled and regulated economy (much like Chavez in venezuela) are disturbing. Don't look at these pictures of life under such an economy in front of children.


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11-12-2012, 07:18 AM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
Quote:Zahir Shah’s rule, like the kings before him, was one of almost total autocratic
power. The word of the king was the word of law. And while advisory councils and
assemblies were sometimes called to advise the king, these bodies had no power,
and in no way represented the people of Afghanistan. These bodies were made up
of the country’s tribal elders – a nice sounding term that in reality referred
to the brutal land owners and patriarchs. And while some history books refer to
this time of Afghanistan’s history as one where attempts were made to
“modernize” the country – all this really meant was newer rifles for the army,
the purchase a few airplanes for a token air force, the creation of a tiny
airline to shuttle the ruling elite around, and some telegraph wires to allow
the king to collect this taxes more promptly. Under his rule political parties
were outlawed, and students were shot and killed when they protested

Drinking Beverage
source


The king was actually overthrown. Can't have been good if it resulted in that.
But he was overthrown by a family member so...

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11-12-2012, 07:34 AM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2012 07:37 AM by I and I.)
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
(11-12-2012 07:18 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Zahir Shah’s rule, like the kings before him, was one of almost total autocratic
power. The word of the king was the word of law. And while advisory councils and
assemblies were sometimes called to advise the king, these bodies had no power,
and in no way represented the people of Afghanistan. These bodies were made up
of the country’s tribal elders – a nice sounding term that in reality referred
to the brutal land owners and patriarchs. And while some history books refer to
this time of Afghanistan’s history as one where attempts were made to
“modernize” the country – all this really meant was newer rifles for the army,
the purchase a few airplanes for a token air force, the creation of a tiny
airline to shuttle the ruling elite around, and some telegraph wires to allow
the king to collect this taxes more promptly. Under his rule political parties
were outlawed, and students were shot and killed when they protested
Drinking Beverage
source


The king was actually overthrown. Can't have been good if it resulted in that.
But he was overthrown by a family member so...
He was overthrown by a communist leaning guy then as this communist leaning guy begins to appease and allow the people to have more say in government (DEMOCRACY) the people choose islamic laws so this appeasing to religious extremism causes the Soviet Union to overthrow this guy and replace him with another communist.

Autocratic rulership doesn't doesn't automatically mean a bad country, anymore than a capitalist democracy automatically means a free society where every lives a good life.

Are you claiming the standards of life in the pictures you see in that link are WORSE than afghanistan under the Taliban?

I brought this issue up during my first week as forum member, how democracy isn't synonymous with freedom at all. The muslim overthrow of secular leaders in Afghanistan was a popular movement and most of the people supported it...democracy by definition...however look what this democracy brought.
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12-12-2012, 09:33 PM
RE: The invasion of Afghanistan...what was this all about?
Quote:He was overthrown by a communist leaning guy then as this communist
leaning guy begins to appease and allow the people to have more say in
government (DEMOCRACY) the people choose islamic laws so this appeasing
to religious extremism causes the Soviet Union to overthrow this guy and
replace him with another communist.

Exactly, you will find your precious Soviets were the ones to fuck up Afghanistan (even though it wasn't as good as you are claiming), not America. (well.. Soviets first, America later).


And I never said dictatorships/monarchies etc.. are always bad. I don't know where you're getting that from.
Given the right person I would prefer a dictatorship over democracy any day.
BUT because the key part of that "the right person" is often so so rare with dictatorships it's not favorable as the only way typically to get rid of a dictator is through coup or revolution (see Islamic world, Africa, Middle East, Fiji for proof of that).

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