The killing of "heretics"
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13-08-2016, 11:47 AM
The killing of "heretics"
I have a fair knowledge of the Bible, but I might be mistaken about this. There is not so much as a suggestion in the New Testament that believers are justified in taking the life of, or even, severely punishing, any non-believer. Christians are told to separate themselves from them or, in some cases, shun them. Even the most emphatic statements against apostasy, in the book of Jude, do not go beyond this.

It seems that the justification for the persecution and slaughter of heretics and non-believers came much later with Constantine and the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire and its Church.

Martin Luther promoted the adoption of this practice by Protestants or, at least, did not condemn it as un-Biblical.

It is perhaps, the book of Revelation, with its hysterical but colorful, prophesies of a "battle of Armageddon" that instills in some modern Christians the delusion that they are the world's great army of God, with a sacred duty to battle with the "army of Satan".

To me, it's all a badly written soap opera that that been the source of untold amounts of suffering in the world.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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13-08-2016, 12:39 PM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
St Thomas' take on this question was that if someone were to counterfeit money, they would be punished. Heresy was counterfeiting the faith and since the faith is more important than money, then the punishment for heresy should be equal or greater than the punishment for conterfeiting money.

In theory, the crime of heresy was claiming something was Christian when it was not (or at least not in line with the church). This is why Muslims and Jews were not considered heretics (although they did have their own problems). The best way to look at heresy was that the heretics where breaking copyright laws (at least in theory).

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13-08-2016, 12:58 PM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
(13-08-2016 12:39 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  St Thomas' take on this question was that if someone were to counterfeit money, they would be punished. Heresy was counterfeiting the faith and since the faith is more important than money, then the punishment for heresy should be equal or greater than the punishment for conterfeiting money.

In theory, the crime of heresy was claiming something was Christian when it was not (or at least not in line with the church). This is why Muslims and Jews were not considered heretics (although they did have their own problems). The best way to look at heresy was that the heretics where breaking copyright laws (at least in theory).

I shouldn't have conflated the term "heretic" with non-believers. Atheists shouldn't overly concern ourselves with doctrinal disputes. Still, even in the case of the followers of heretical (non-orthodox) doctrines, I don't think the Bible justifies any remedy other than separation from them.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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13-08-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
(13-08-2016 12:58 PM)666wannabe Wrote:  
(13-08-2016 12:39 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  St Thomas' take on this question was that if someone were to counterfeit money, they would be punished. Heresy was counterfeiting the faith and since the faith is more important than money, then the punishment for heresy should be equal or greater than the punishment for conterfeiting money.

In theory, the crime of heresy was claiming something was Christian when it was not (or at least not in line with the church). This is why Muslims and Jews were not considered heretics (although they did have their own problems). The best way to look at heresy was that the heretics where breaking copyright laws (at least in theory).

I shouldn't have conflated the term "heretic" with non-believers. Atheists shouldn't overly concern ourselves with doctrinal disputes. Still, even in the case of the followers of heretical (non-orthodox) doctrines, I don't think the Bible justifies any remedy other than separation from them.

You are essentially correct. And most Christians do not hold that you can kill people for just not believing. Even in the middle ages. Alexander VI, considered one of the most corrupt popes, took in several thousand Jewish refugees from Spain into Rome.
When it came to things like the crusades, Just War Doctrine was being developed, which basically held that a Just War could only be a defensive war. Of course as the sport saying goes, the best defense is a good offense.
When it comes down to it. Theoretically you should not kill un-believers. In practice...well that's a different story.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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13-08-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
(13-08-2016 11:47 AM)666wannabe Wrote:  I have a fair knowledge of the Bible, but I might be mistaken about this. There is not so much as a suggestion in the New Testament that believers are justified in taking the life of, or even, severely punishing, any non-believer. Christians are told to separate themselves from them or, in some cases, shun them. Even the most emphatic statements against apostasy, in the book of Jude, do not go beyond this.

It seems that the justification for the persecution and slaughter of heretics and non-believers came much later with Constantine and the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire and its Church.

Martin Luther promoted the adoption of this practice by Protestants or, at least, did not condemn it as un-Biblical.

It is perhaps, the book of Revelation, with its hysterical but colorful, prophesies of a "battle of Armageddon" that instills in some modern Christians the delusion that they are the world's great army of God, with a sacred duty to battle with the "army of Satan".

To me, it's all a badly written soap opera that that been the source of untold amounts of suffering in the world.

There was the group to which Ananias and Safire were members. They were killed, bot presumably by God Hisownself for lying about having given all their money to the church. It has been years since i read that babble, but it is in the New Testicles. Not the old.
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13-08-2016, 11:30 PM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
(13-08-2016 12:39 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  St Thomas' take on this question was that if someone were to counterfeit money, they would be punished. Heresy was counterfeiting the faith and since the faith is more important than money, then the punishment for heresy should be equal or greater than the punishment for counterfeiting money.

In theory, the crime of heresy was claiming something was Christian when it was not (or at least not in line with the church). This is why Muslims and Jews were not considered heretics (although they did have their own problems). The best way to look at heresy was that the heretics where breaking copyright laws (at least in theory).

Excellent analogy.

Faith and money.

Both are human constructs.

Yes

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14-08-2016, 06:37 AM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
It's one of religion's oldest lies ----

"They're not like us -- it's OK to kill them."

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-08-2016, 04:29 PM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
(14-08-2016 06:37 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  It's one of religion's oldest lies ----

"They're not like us -- it's OK to kill them."

Pretty sure that's more a human thing than just a religious thing.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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14-08-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: The killing of "heretics"
(14-08-2016 06:37 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  It's one of religion's oldest lies ----

"They're not like us -- it's OK to kill them."

And quite universal across religions in general.
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