"The mind is proof of god's existence."
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05-02-2013, 11:29 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Rape is possibly an evolutionary advantageous trait, as in the past a rapist would be more likely to pass on their genes through many offspring. Is it a necessity? Not at all, most of us are born without rape, so it's not necessary for our survival. Does that make rape moral or ethical? Not at all. Why not? Subjectively, it violates the rights and desires of the victim. Objectively, it causes more net suffering than not raping, and is therefore objectively worse than not raping.
Yes, subjectively, the rights and desires of the victim. From whence does a person's rights derive? What are the evolutionary rights of a person? From whence do you get whether rape is moral or ethical or not moral or ethical? From whence do you get the notion that "net suffering" is an evolutionary issue?
From our evolved brain...

Look, morality is a highly debatable subject. No one person can ever objectively describe morality. But that doesn't give you the right to insert your belief as the cause or reason.

A person's rights are derived from the society they reside in. In a civilized world, rape is unacceptable. Therefore, it is wrong in that particular society. This isn't the case for all societies though. Is rape objectively an immoral action? That is a question that cannot be answered objectively.

As for "net suffering" being an evolutionary issue...

There's one key aspect of evolution and it is survival of the fittest. Net suffering does not bode well for the survival of a species.

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05-02-2013, 11:46 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 11:29 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  There's one key aspect of evolution and it is survival of the fittest. Net suffering does not bode well for the survival of a species.

Please don't perpetuate that phrase, as creationist like to have a field day with it. The fittest don't always survive, nor are they always the best at reproducing. The traits that do get passed on are the ones that facilitate reproduction.

In this case, rape can be an advantage. But it also isn't in your best interest to let your mate conceive the child of another, and then waste your resources protecting offspring that don't pass on your genes. So rape and sexual jealousy probably evolved in tandem, as both are advantageous to reproduction and passing on one's genes. With humans these evolutionary urges are now enshrines in social constructs, like marriage and legal prohibitions against rape. Because between the two options, steady partners were more conducive to establishing and maintaining stable groups, tribes, clans, and societies.

Rape is an reproductive advantage to the rapist, but steady partners are an reproductive advantage to the species. The species won out. Mutual cooperation (through language) is still one of our strongest evolutionary advantages.

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06-02-2013, 07:52 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
"Rape is an reproductive advantage to the rapist," is my point. You've got to feel many of the fruits of Evolution are abhorrent to moral people.
*"Abortion is an advantage to the mother,"
*"Homosexuality is a mutation that kills off those homosexuals of a species"
*"Jews and Blacks are less evolved than Aryans, and we will triumph over them, it is our destiny as Darwin and Nietzsche have foretold"
Disgusting.
*Rape is a capital crime in the Torah (please don't bother with the "marry the rapist" scam, the context in the different passages is where a woman being assaulted calls for help and variously, where it is mutually consented upon fornication that should be a marriage, not rape)
*Abortion kills a child that should have civil rights as a living being
*Homosexuals are beloved of God and made in God's image (no, I don't want to hear what 50 people in the media's favorite church say about homosexuals, millions of true Christians know Jesus loves straights and gays alike)
*Jews and blacks and all non-Aryans are likewise children of Adam and beloved by God
Evolution is disgusting in its implications, degenerate and vile. Creation affirms and trumpets human and animal rights alike! And the mind? A terrible thing to waste. Peace out.
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06-02-2013, 07:55 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Peace out.
Exactly.



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06-02-2013, 09:01 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "Rape is an reproductive advantage to the rapist," is my point. You've got to feel many of the fruits of Evolution are abhorrent to moral people.
*"Abortion is an advantage to the mother,"
*"Homosexuality is a mutation that kills off those homosexuals of a species"
*"Jews and Blacks are less evolved than Aryans, and we will triumph over them, it is our destiny as Darwin and Nietzsche have foretold"
Disgusting.
*Rape is a capital crime in the Torah (please don't bother with the "marry the rapist" scam, the context in the different passages is where a woman being assaulted calls for help and variously, where it is mutually consented upon fornication that should be a marriage, not rape)
*Abortion kills a child that should have civil rights as a living being
*Homosexuals are beloved of God and made in God's image (no, I don't want to hear what 50 people in the media's favorite church say about homosexuals, millions of true Christians know Jesus loves straights and gays alike)
*Jews and blacks and all non-Aryans are likewise children of Adam and beloved by God
Evolution is disgusting in its implications, degenerate and vile. Creation affirms and trumpets human and animal rights alike! And the mind? A terrible thing to waste. Peace out.

Your misunderstanding and dislike of evolution do not make it false.

The evidence makes it true. Deal with it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-02-2013, 10:29 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 09:20 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "Rape is an reproductive advantage to the rapist," is my point. You've got to feel many of the fruits of Evolution are abhorrent to moral people.

I'm sorry, is this supposed to be a coherent sentence? I don't feel up my fruit, I eat it. As for your moral indignation, nature doesn't give a flying fuck about what may or may not offend the delicate sensibilities you like to label as 'morality'. There is no law of nature that says nature must be 'nice' or act in acordance with your perceived 'morality', grow up.


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *"Abortion is an advantage to the mother,"

What? Is this just a blanket assertion? I'm guessing that you're point here is to try and equate evolution with the Pro-Choice movement in an attempt to mutually discredit both, but if that is indeed the case, would only prove just how childish your understanding and reasoning abilities are. Assuming that is the case, I'll go out and say that abortion can be 'advantageous' to the pregnant women in certain circumstances, such as when the fetus threatens the life of the mother. I fail to see how this has anything to do with evolution in any way, other than it has allowed us to develop to the point where we both overpopulate the planet (thus not requiring more children in order to carry on the species) and have the intelligence and technology to make such techniques relatively safe.


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *"Homosexuality is a mutation that kills off those homosexuals of a species"

Wrong. Strict homosexuality only limits the reproductive opportunities of the homosexual individual, it doesn't kill them off. Being directly killed off because of homosexuality is a uniquely human trait, because while homosexuality and bisexuality are very common throughout the animal kingdom, homophobia only exists in one species. Bisexuality also allows the passing on of the genes and traits associated with homosexual behavior, which is how it can continue to spread throughout a species.


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *"Jews and Blacks are less evolved than Aryans, and we will triumph over them, it is our destiny as Darwin and Nietzsche have foretold"
Disgusting.

Bullshit, and quite frankly, fuck you. This is such a blatant breach of the 9'th Commandment that you ought to feel deeply ashamed of yourself. In his time, Darwin was a social progressive and an abolitionist. And I daresay that you're probably too much of an ignorant jackass to understand that big word, so let me explain if for you; being an abolitionist means that he advocated for the ending of slavery. He never advocated eugenics, that was the work of Francis Galton, and never endorsed by Darwin. I'm not familiar enough with Nietzsche, but judging by your terrible track record, I feel confident that your claim against him is bogus as well.


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Rape is a capital crime in the Torah (please don't bother with the "marry the rapist" scam, the context in the different passages is where a woman being assaulted calls for help and variously, where it is mutually consented upon fornication that should be a marriage, not rape)

I didn't write the damn book, but wishing the passages away does nothing to help your point. Also, rape isn't even a capitol offense in all cases (you know, like working on the Sabbath is), read your own book for fuck's sake...

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."
(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife. (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Abortion kills a child that should have civil rights as a living being

This is debatable, but I love how you don't give any support to your blanket assertion. When us rational adults do have this conversation, it will be in the light of science, not in the context of 2000 year old middle eastern mythology. Also, you should have warned Yahweh about the civil rights of the all the unborn before he decided to drown the whole world. Or before he gave women a reproduction system that is believed naturally abort 50% of all pregnancies. Yahweh, if we were truly made by him in his image, is the most prolific abortionist of all time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Homosexuals are beloved of God and made in God's image (no, I don't want to hear what 50 people in the media's favorite church say about homosexuals, millions of true Christians know Jesus loves straights and gays alike)
*Jews and blacks and all non-Aryans are likewise children of Adam and beloved by God

No arguments here, outside the existence of Yahweh and Jesus. If you're actually arguing for the equal treatment of your fellow man, and against discrimination and bigotry, it would be the first smart thing I've seen you post. However I must point out that your god Yahweh does hate homosexuals (the men at least, seems he's cool with lesbians I guess).

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:13


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Evolution is disgusting in its implications, degenerate and vile. Creation affirms and trumpets human and animal rights alike!

Once again, grow up; nature's operation is not dependent upon not offending your sensibilities. Nor is it 'degenerate and vile', nature is what it is; without purpose and consciousness. It is product of the laws of the universe, so if you think evolution and nature are 'degenerate and vile', then so must gravity and electromagnetism be equally disgusting.

How exactly does creation affirm the rights of humans and animals? How is being created for the sole purpose of being tested affirming? How is being toys created for Yahweh's amusement meant to be affirming? Nature is not a conscious agent, and so we can't hold nature accountable for human and animal suffering. But Yahweh? If he truly did create everything, then he is directly responsible for the breadth of suffering in existence. He could have made us all photosynthesize the sun's light for energy like most plants do, or even created us with no needs whatsoever (surely such a thing is within the power of a being that created the universe). That he would purposely design us and a good chunk of the animal kingdom to require the death and consumption of other living organisms to maintain our own existence? Yahweh would then also take the cake as the greatest sadist of all time.


(06-02-2013 07:52 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And the mind? A terrible thing to waste.

Correct, and it's a shame that's exactly what you continue to do...

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06-02-2013, 05:03 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
EvolutionKills covered most of it, but I'd like to point something out:

There is nothing about evolution that says that Jews or black people are less evolved. First off, which Jews do you refer to? Eastern European white Jews? Middle Eastern Jews? White American Jews? They all look pretty different nowadays.

Second, black people are just as evolved as Aryans. It could be argued that they have evolved less times, since as humanity originated in Africa, the members of our species that stayed there were already well evolved for the environment that they lived in, and did not need to evolve much further.

Those who left Africa were no longer suited for their environment, and so evolved to fit their new habitat. But black people and Aryans, to use your two examples, are just as evolved as each other for the environments they live in.

Only people who do not understand evolution would suggest that they are "less evolved".

It's nice to know by the way that God loves all children of Adam equally. I guess it only applies to the men though huh? Ever notice how God was always a complete asshole to women? Or did you just choose to conveniently ignore that bit?
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06-02-2013, 11:28 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 11:46 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 11:29 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  There's one key aspect of evolution and it is survival of the fittest. Net suffering does not bode well for the survival of a species.

Please don't perpetuate that phrase, as creationist like to have a field day with it. The fittest don't always survive, nor are they always the best at reproducing. The traits that do get passed on are the ones that facilitate reproduction.

In this case, rape can be an advantage. But it also isn't in your best interest to let your mate conceive the child of another, and then waste your resources protecting offspring that don't pass on your genes. So rape and sexual jealousy probably evolved in tandem, as both are advantageous to reproduction and passing on one's genes. With humans these evolutionary urges are now enshrines in social constructs, like marriage and legal prohibitions against rape. Because between the two options, steady partners were more conducive to establishing and maintaining stable groups, tribes, clans, and societies.

Rape is an reproductive advantage to the rapist, but steady partners are an reproductive advantage to the species. The species won out. Mutual cooperation (through language) is still one of our strongest evolutionary advantages.
I will use that phrase and perpetuate it all I want. It is a key phrase in Biology used by Darwin himself. Of course creationists have a field day with it because they take it out of context. They choose to define "fittest" in most literal sense rather than the metaphorical sense that Darwin meant.

Creationists have even more of a field day with the phrase "THEORY of evolution." Are you suggesting that we should all stop perpetuating that phrase too?

"Survival of the fittest" in no way means the most perfect specimen will continue on. All it means is that the ones who can reproduce and keep reproducing will be the ones to spread their genes. They are the "fittest" in the sense that they were the ones out of many that were able to continue reproducing.

Your rape analogy is missing a key ingredient... human emotion. What woman likes being raped? In civilized society, a rape victim has several resources they can exhaust to ease the pain. A lot of times, their rapist is caught and punished. But even in this civilized society, a lot of rape victims simply do not recover fully mentally. Some even commit suicide. The rest combat depression. Then there's the issue of them ever having kids after such a traumatic incident.

Now imagine a world where rape is accepted by society. Even in this type of world, I have a strong feeling women would still suffer mentally. Difference being, they don't have anyone they can rely on to help them through their turmoil.

So now I ask you, how can this net suffering bode well for the survival of our species? Of course this is all hypothetical. If you have any evidence that rape victims overall recover quite well and live on to start families (have their own children), please provide it.

Until then, my point stands. No matter how you slice the bread, rape has almost no advantage IMO so long as the species in question is capable of reflecting on past trauma.

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06-02-2013, 11:36 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
By the way, I'd like to remind everyone that Human Beings are a SOCIAL species. This aspect of our species is one of the key ingredients to our continued survival. Power in numbers.

If you insert rape to the point where it is what the vast majority do, it will ruin the social aspect of our species. So long humans. You had a pretty good go at it.

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07-02-2013, 12:01 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(06-02-2013 11:28 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 11:46 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Please don't perpetuate that phrase, as creationist like to have a field day with it. The fittest don't always survive, nor are they always the best at reproducing. The traits that do get passed on are the ones that facilitate reproduction.

In this case, rape can be an advantage. But it also isn't in your best interest to let your mate conceive the child of another, and then waste your resources protecting offspring that don't pass on your genes. So rape and sexual jealousy probably evolved in tandem, as both are advantageous to reproduction and passing on one's genes. With humans these evolutionary urges are now enshrines in social constructs, like marriage and legal prohibitions against rape. Because between the two options, steady partners were more conducive to establishing and maintaining stable groups, tribes, clans, and societies.

Rape is an reproductive advantage to the rapist, but steady partners are an reproductive advantage to the species. The species won out. Mutual cooperation (through language) is still one of our strongest evolutionary advantages.
I will use that phrase and perpetuate it all I want. It is a key phrase in Biology used by Darwin himself. Of course creationists have a field day with it because they take it out of context. They choose to define "fittest" in most literal sense rather than the metaphorical sense that Darwin meant.

Creationists have even more of a field day with the phrase "THEORY of evolution." Are you suggesting that we should all stop perpetuating that phrase too?

"Survival of the fittest" in no way means the most perfect specimen will continue on. All it means is that the ones who can reproduce and keep reproducing will be the ones to spread their genes. They are the "fittest" in the sense that they were the ones out of many that were able to continue reproducing.

Your rape analogy is missing a key ingredient... human emotion. What woman likes being raped? In civilized society, a rape victim has several resources they can exhaust to ease the pain. A lot of times, their rapist is caught and punished. But even in this civilized society, a lot of rape victims simply do not recover fully mentally. Some even commit suicide. The rest combat depression. Then there's the issue of them ever having kids after such a traumatic incident.

Now imagine a world where rape is accepted by society. Even in this type of world, I have a strong feeling women would still suffer mentally. Difference being, they don't have anyone they can rely on to help them through their turmoil.

So now I ask you, how can this net suffering bode well for the survival of our species? Of course this is all hypothetical. If you have any evidence that rape victims overall recover quite well and live on to start families (have their own children), please provide it.

Until then, my point stands. No matter how you slice the bread, rape has almost no advantage IMO so long as the species in question is capable of reflecting on past trauma.


Your argument about 'survival of the fittest' as compared tot he 'theory of evolution' is well made, and point taken.

However I hope you didn't misconstrued the rest of my post as a polemic in favor of rape, I was merely exploring the evolutionary reasoning behind the social mores concerning rape.

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