"The mind is proof of god's existence."
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07-02-2013, 12:43 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(07-02-2013 12:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 11:28 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  I will use that phrase and perpetuate it all I want. It is a key phrase in Biology used by Darwin himself. Of course creationists have a field day with it because they take it out of context. They choose to define "fittest" in most literal sense rather than the metaphorical sense that Darwin meant.

Creationists have even more of a field day with the phrase "THEORY of evolution." Are you suggesting that we should all stop perpetuating that phrase too?

"Survival of the fittest" in no way means the most perfect specimen will continue on. All it means is that the ones who can reproduce and keep reproducing will be the ones to spread their genes. They are the "fittest" in the sense that they were the ones out of many that were able to continue reproducing.

Your rape analogy is missing a key ingredient... human emotion. What woman likes being raped? In civilized society, a rape victim has several resources they can exhaust to ease the pain. A lot of times, their rapist is caught and punished. But even in this civilized society, a lot of rape victims simply do not recover fully mentally. Some even commit suicide. The rest combat depression. Then there's the issue of them ever having kids after such a traumatic incident.

Now imagine a world where rape is accepted by society. Even in this type of world, I have a strong feeling women would still suffer mentally. Difference being, they don't have anyone they can rely on to help them through their turmoil.

So now I ask you, how can this net suffering bode well for the survival of our species? Of course this is all hypothetical. If you have any evidence that rape victims overall recover quite well and live on to start families (have their own children), please provide it.

Until then, my point stands. No matter how you slice the bread, rape has almost no advantage IMO so long as the species in question is capable of reflecting on past trauma.


Your argument about 'survival of the fittest' as compared tot he 'theory of evolution' is well made, and point taken.

However I hope you didn't misconstrued the rest of my post as a polemic in favor of rape, I was merely exploring the evolutionary reasoning behind the social mores concerning rape.
No no, I was just continuing with the subject matter. Adding to your thoughts with counter-thoughts. There were no assumptions about your personal character made.

Fun stuff.

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07-02-2013, 01:50 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(06-02-2013 11:28 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 11:46 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Please don't perpetuate that phrase, as creationist like to have a field day with it. The fittest don't always survive, nor are they always the best at reproducing. The traits that do get passed on are the ones that facilitate reproduction.

In this case, rape can be an advantage. But it also isn't in your best interest to let your mate conceive the child of another, and then waste your resources protecting offspring that don't pass on your genes. So rape and sexual jealousy probably evolved in tandem, as both are advantageous to reproduction and passing on one's genes. With humans these evolutionary urges are now enshrines in social constructs, like marriage and legal prohibitions against rape. Because between the two options, steady partners were more conducive to establishing and maintaining stable groups, tribes, clans, and societies.

Rape is an reproductive advantage to the rapist, but steady partners are an reproductive advantage to the species. The species won out. Mutual cooperation (through language) is still one of our strongest evolutionary advantages.
I will use that phrase and perpetuate it all I want. It is a key phrase in Biology used by Darwin himself.

Darwin did not coin that phrase - it does not appear in On the Origin of Species - it was Herbert Spencer who made that one up.

You believe a falsehood and to perpetuate now would be dishonest.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2013, 05:02 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(07-02-2013 01:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 11:28 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  I will use that phrase and perpetuate it all I want. It is a key phrase in Biology used by Darwin himself.

Darwin did not coin that phrase - it does not appear in On the Origin of Species - it was Herbert Spencer who made that one up.

You believe a falsehood and to perpetuate now would be dishonest.

1) I never said Darwin "coined" that phrase

2) It does appear in The Origin of Species. I looked it up, 5th edition.

I haven't read the book, but the quote I remember is in here:

http://www.darwin-literature.com/l_quotes.html

So no perpetuating of falsehoods on my side. That ball is in your court fine sir.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

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07-02-2013, 05:10 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(20-01-2013 05:59 AM)Chujutsu Wrote:  She told me that the mind is proof.

Personally, I am not entirely convinced of the argument, seeing that I didn't really push her for more. However, I would like to know what you guys think about it, like a possible refutation to her statement.

Tell her she might be right. Someone with human mind did create her god - several humans, actually.

You might let her know, it's probably not a good idea to worship fiction, though. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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07-02-2013, 06:20 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(07-02-2013 05:02 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(07-02-2013 01:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Darwin did not coin that phrase - it does not appear in On the Origin of Species - it was Herbert Spencer who made that one up.

You believe a falsehood and to perpetuate now would be dishonest.

1) I never said Darwin "coined" that phrase

2) It does appear in The Origin of Species. I looked it up, 5th edition.

I haven't read the book, but the quote I remember is in here:

http://www.darwin-literature.com/l_quotes.html

So no perpetuating of falsehoods on my side. That ball is in your court fine sir.


He actually quotes Spencer.
"But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer, of the Survival of the Fittest, is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2013, 08:50 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Second quote in my link Chas. And I'm sure it's elsewhere in the book.

Again, he was using it as metaphor. And again, again, it is a key phrase in biology.

Again, again, and again, EVERYTHING in science is taken out of context when it comes to a theist.

Dammit Chas, do you always have to be right? It's okay to admit when you're wrong once in a while.

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07-02-2013, 09:44 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(07-02-2013 06:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2013 05:02 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  1) I never said Darwin "coined" that phrase

2) It does appear in The Origin of Species. I looked it up, 5th edition.

I haven't read the book, but the quote I remember is in here:

http://www.darwin-literature.com/l_quotes.html

So no perpetuating of falsehoods on my side. That ball is in your court fine sir.


He actually quotes Spencer.
"But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer, of the Survival of the Fittest, is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient."
I admit when I'm wrong. This is not one of those times. Drinking Beverage

"Survival of the fittest" is not a Darwinism, and it is a mischaracterization used by anti-evolutionists.

It is not a valid or useful phrase in use by evolutionary biologists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(07-02-2013 09:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2013 06:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  He actually quotes Spencer.
"But the expression often used by Mr. Herbert Spencer, of the Survival of the Fittest, is more accurate, and is sometimes equally convenient."
I admit when I'm wrong. This is not one of those times. Drinking Beverage

"Survival of the fittest" is not a Darwinism, and it is a mischaracterization used by anti-evolutionists.

It is not a valid or useful phrase in use by evolutionary biologists.

Stop changing the subject.

Your original claim was that Darwin didn't use that phrase in Origin of Species.

"Survival of the Fittest" still shows up in text books. As long as it's taught properly, the phrase sums it up nicely.

But you're entitled to your own opinion on it. This wasn't what we were debating you and I.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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07-02-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(07-02-2013 08:50 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Again, again, and again, EVERYTHING in science is taken out of context when it comes to a theist.

Some theists claim that we 'believe' as we do because we don't understand and take things out of context. It's funny that this comes up here. However it is true. We are expected to read the whole bible, why can't theists read our books? I am sure some do, but I doubt it is many.

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07-02-2013, 11:40 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Terrific arguments and counters in this thread, bravo!









Hey...where did the PleezeGeesus guy go?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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