"The mind is proof of god's existence."
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22-02-2013, 07:07 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Quote:Well, if someone were to say this to me, I would be highly offended. My mind has been messing with my emotions and trying to get me to kill myself for three years, at least one of which was a Christian year.

Did God create sociopaths, then? That is a mental condition.

My dad had a stroke. If a god did that to him, fuck heaven.
I'm not wanting to negate your very real emotions in any way, but are you saying bad things should never happen to people. What's was your dad's take on his own health? Was he discouraged?
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22-02-2013, 10:26 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(22-02-2013 07:07 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Well, if someone were to say this to me, I would be highly offended. My mind has been messing with my emotions and trying to get me to kill myself for three years, at least one of which was a Christian year.

Did God create sociopaths, then? That is a mental condition.

My dad had a stroke. If a god did that to him, fuck heaven.
I'm not wanting to negate your very real emotions in any way, but are you saying bad things should never happen to people. What's was your dad's take on his own health? Was he discouraged?
I'm not saying that; I'm saying that a god who is, in theory, a flawless being, would not create unnecessary suffering. My dad's situation is complicated; he has multiple health problems now and is upset because he's disabled. He used to be so active and being passive drives him crazy. He thinks he's going to die and talks about it all the time; it's sort of depressing to hear.

One of my relatives was a pedophile mostly because of his childhood experiences. His actions caused him to hate himself for the rest of his life and he messed up several of his kids. The god I was brought up to believe in would have condemned him to a life in hell, but honestly I believe after a lifetime of remorse, he earned his salvation (if that can be earned).
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22-02-2013, 12:00 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(22-02-2013 10:26 AM)The Talking Goat Wrote:  
(22-02-2013 07:07 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm not wanting to negate your very real emotions in any way, but are you saying bad things should never happen to people. What's was your dad's take on his own health? Was he discouraged?
I'm not saying that; I'm saying that a god who is, in theory, a flawless being, would not create unnecessary suffering. My dad's situation is complicated; he has multiple health problems now and is upset because he's disabled. He used to be so active and being passive drives him crazy. He thinks he's going to die and talks about it all the time; it's sort of depressing to hear.

One of my relatives was a pedophile mostly because of his childhood experiences. His actions caused him to hate himself for the rest of his life and he messed up several of his kids. The god I was brought up to believe in would have condemned him to a life in hell, but honestly I believe after a lifetime of remorse, he earned his salvation (if that can be earned).
I hear you loud and clear. I do offer sincere sympathy. I have had a lot of pain in my life; it will hurt really badly for a time, but you will get through this. I really cannot say anything to take your pain away, but I do know what it feels like. Thanks for being open with me.
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22-02-2013, 01:00 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(22-02-2013 12:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(22-02-2013 10:26 AM)The Talking Goat Wrote:  I'm not saying that; I'm saying that a god who is, in theory, a flawless being, would not create unnecessary suffering. My dad's situation is complicated; he has multiple health problems now and is upset because he's disabled. He used to be so active and being passive drives him crazy. He thinks he's going to die and talks about it all the time; it's sort of depressing to hear.

One of my relatives was a pedophile mostly because of his childhood experiences. His actions caused him to hate himself for the rest of his life and he messed up several of his kids. The god I was brought up to believe in would have condemned him to a life in hell, but honestly I believe after a lifetime of remorse, he earned his salvation (if that can be earned).
I hear you loud and clear. I do offer sincere sympathy. I have had a lot of pain in my life; it will hurt really badly for a time, but you will get through this. I really cannot say anything to take your pain away, but I do know what it feels like. Thanks for being open with me.
I don't mind being open; the anonymity of the internet lets me say what I actually think when my face-to-face interactions make me hold back.




Relating back to the topic at hand, I honestly think that atheists I know have impressed me much more than the religious people. They've been intelligent people with open minds. Plus, this side of the God wall has a better sense of humor, not to mention better grammar. Thumbsup
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22-02-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Seems kind of an odd choice for proof of a God, since people who believe in Gods is clearly out of their mind...

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22-02-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
I read this today. What would you say?
Charlie came to me by recommendation of several family members. He had been diagnosed as schizophrenic, was on several different medications, and had been in the psychiatric system for many years. We worked together for about eight sessions and succeeded in removing many lies, but then we came up against a wall. There were several obvious problems in the way Charlie was processing information. For example, he might be carrying on a normal conversation with me when he would suddenly diverge into a line of thought that had nothing to do with the conversation. Other little quirks were present as well, including hearing voices outside of his head and believing that others were always watching him. He expressed fear about this.

I asked Charlie to focus on this fear and the belief about people watching him. I then asked the Lord what He might want Charlie to know about this mental state of mind. Charlie found it very easy to identify God’s presence and hear His voice. I asked the Lord to show him why he had these mental difficulties, and Charlie reported, "Jesus said, ‘I was created mentally special. And this is okay.’ "
I was somewhat taken aback to hear this but Charlie seemed to be at peace with this response. Over time I began to see that he had the same potential for God’s joy as I do. I also discovered in the Bible that God accepts responsibility for the condition of the handicapped. "The Lord said … who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?"

(Exodus 4:11, NKJV).
I believe Charlie’s mental disorder is incurable unless God physically heals him. However, he received much mind renewal during our sessions and many of the lie-based symptoms went away. Whether or not people have a true mental disorder, they need to be relieved of their lie-based thinking. Without exception, everyone is infested with falsehood and we all need to have our mind renewed.

It is sometimes hard to determine when people are truly mentally ill and when they are merely in bondage to faulty thinking. The good news is that it is not the role of the facilitator to figure this out. I assume that all people need truth and do ministry on this basis. Why not start with the lie issues and then work toward the medical condition, if one exists?
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22-02-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(22-02-2013 02:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I read this today. What would you say?
Charlie came to me by recommendation of several family members. He had been diagnosed as schizophrenic, was on several different medications, and had been in the psychiatric system for many years. We worked together for about eight sessions and succeeded in removing many lies, but then we came up against a wall. There were several obvious problems in the way Charlie was processing information. For example, he might be carrying on a normal conversation with me when he would suddenly diverge into a line of thought that had nothing to do with the conversation. Other little quirks were present as well, including hearing voices outside of his head and believing that others were always watching him. He expressed fear about this.

I asked Charlie to focus on this fear and the belief about people watching him. I then asked the Lord what He might want Charlie to know about this mental state of mind. Charlie found it very easy to identify God’s presence and hear His voice. I asked the Lord to show him why he had these mental difficulties, and Charlie reported, "Jesus said, ‘I was created mentally special. And this is okay.’ "
I was somewhat taken aback to hear this but Charlie seemed to be at peace with this response. Over time I began to see that he had the same potential for God’s joy as I do. I also discovered in the Bible that God accepts responsibility for the condition of the handicapped. "The Lord said … who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?"

(Exodus 4:11, NKJV).
I believe Charlie’s mental disorder is incurable unless God physically heals him. However, he received much mind renewal during our sessions and many of the lie-based symptoms went away. Whether or not people have a true mental disorder, they need to be relieved of their lie-based thinking. Without exception, everyone is infested with falsehood and we all need to have our mind renewed.

It is sometimes hard to determine when people are truly mentally ill and when they are merely in bondage to faulty thinking. The good news is that it is not the role of the facilitator to figure this out. I assume that all people need truth and do ministry on this basis. Why not start with the lie issues and then work toward the medical condition, if one exists?
I couldn't put it better myself, welcome to your first step towards atheism...

Obama promised you change. Reach in your pocket, feel those coins? There's your change...
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23-02-2013, 01:09 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Why is the mind proof? I'm sure Darwin didn't prove evolution by saying "change".

Your friend needs to elaborate a little.
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16-07-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
It could be, if you agree w/ the following:

1) Logic exists everywhere in the universe.
2) Logic is thought.
3) Thought only comes from a mind.
Therefore, a mind created the universe.

I think premise #2 Ithe weaker premise, so I'll add the following:
Logic, in its various forms (including mathematics) has been something we discover, not something invented by man. It is not matter or energy. It does not require any dimensions in order to exist, and can exist outside the universe.

Any thoughts?
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16-07-2014, 10:48 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(20-01-2013 05:59 AM)Chujutsu Wrote:  Hello guys.

I told a new acquaintance of mine that I was reading The God Delusion. She was appalled at the title, telling me that god is not a delusion. I asked her for her proof. She told me that the mind is proof.

Personally, I am not entirely convinced of the argument, seeing that I didn't really push her for more. However, I would like to know what you guys think about it, like a possible refutation to her statement.

Thanks.

To me the mind opens the possibility and even the high probability of the soul. When I say soul I mean aware being or just awareness. And this may point to a mind that can not be reduced to a brain or it's chemical processes. Even though it is not supernatural the mind defies the conventional descriptions of materialist.

Meaning that matter is an illusion created by subatomic particles doing a quantum dance. But even though that dance even baffled Einstein it is still a dance of a physical existence.

So I can get from mind to a soul.

But from a soul to a deity?

You can't get there from here.

From the mind to the soul to awareness? Yes maybe. I will argue for it but doubt I will convince anybody who is closed to even the possibility.

From there animism or pantheism of some kind? It takes a strong mind backed up by real spiritual experiences to go anywhere near there.And you certainly would not be able to put it in words as an experience. It would not be like describing tea.

But trying to describe the tasting of tea (the experience). No words are possible. And what ever that experience is it would not fit into any religious idea or concept. Even Einstein was non committal and he admitted he was not an atheist. But in no way did he respect any religious ideas or concepts of God.Not even a generic god that would fit all religions.
...

But still even if you get there there is no white bearded man sitting on a throne throwing down lightening or judging people or whatever it is mythological god-men do.
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