"The mind is proof of god's existence."
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30-01-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(30-01-2013 02:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The mind is not proof God exists IMHO. But just as Atheists have told me they cannot "see" or "sense" my soul, it is true that not all mind activity is measurable as brain wave activity.


I'm at a loss as to your point. I certainly hope you're not going to use our limited understanding of neurology as evidence for a soul, so that I won't have to point out how fallacious that statement would be. Consider

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30-01-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(30-01-2013 02:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The mind is not proof God exists IMHO. But just as Atheists have told me they cannot "see" or "sense" my soul, it is true that not all mind activity is measurable as brain wave activity.


And you have an example of this supposed activity within the brain, that did not originate from the brain?

In fact, do you have an example of a "mind wave" as opposed to a "brain wave"? (I ask because you seem to differentiate the two)

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30-01-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
See the post immediately above yours. We have a limited understanding of neurology of thought. The old dualism of mind and body as separate may be close to the mark. Christians call this separation "soul".
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30-01-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(30-01-2013 03:17 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  See the post immediately above yours. We have a limited understanding of neurology of thought. The old dualism of mind and body as separate may be close to the mark. Christians call this separation "soul".
There is absolutely no evidence of dualism. All the neurological evidence points to the brain as the sole source of mind.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
I understand. There is no neurological evidence for dualism, which would imply a non-neurological fact in evidence. So I agree with you there. However, there is a limited neurological map of thoughts and emotions, etc. and scientists have many missing links in the neurological chain.
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31-01-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(31-01-2013 10:38 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand. There is no neurological evidence for dualism, which would imply a non-neurological fact in evidence. So I agree with you there. However, there is a limited neurological map of thoughts and emotions, etc. and scientists have many missing links in the neurological chain.
Which means there is more to be learned, not that there is evidence for anything non-neurological.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Very interesting Chas. So there is more to be learned in your closed system and nothing to be possibly learned outside that system.

The scene: 1600 AD

Matt: The moon? Someday, by God, man will walk on that alien planet.

Chas: I told you, it's a hole in the dome. We know that. There's nothing to walk on. Just because we haven't flown there yet doesn't mean there is room for any free thinking outside our closed system of knowledge.
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31-01-2013, 02:38 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
I have heard the complexity argument before it's crap. Or but the human eye is so complex it has to be an intelligent design. Here's the problem with that. You can trace through science mechanism's of change. It's called evolution ( I know crazy right! ). Outside forces incur internal changes. Humans never were the strongest or the fastest species. We didn't have great vision we didn't have great smell or hearing. so how on earth did we make it to the top of the food chain? We were smarter! You can watch the evolution of the mind by looking at time period's and how we hunted and killed the tools we used and eventually we grew our own food. We have ancestors that grew smarter with every generation eventually becoming homo erectus. Walking upright and using thought and tactics to dominate our world. You see if evolution was not real human's would not be around today. Also I have fossil evidence of my ancestors. Does she by chance have any physical evidence of her god?
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31-01-2013, 02:49 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(31-01-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Very interesting Chas. So there is more to be learned in your closed system and nothing to be possibly learned outside that system.

The scene: 1600 AD

Matt: The moon? Someday, by God, man will walk on that alien planet.

Chas: I told you, it's a hole in the dome. We know that. There's nothing to walk on. Just because we haven't flown there yet doesn't mean there is room for any free thinking outside our closed system of knowledge.


Not sure if ad hom,

Or just dumb argument.


Either way, in some circumstances, yes, there is more to be learned from a closed system as opposed to an open one. Entropy increases overtime in a closed system. That is quite interesting, need a closed system to test it.


However, if you are trying to imply that human knowledge is a closed system, then no, it is not. A closed system can be defined as a system where everything remains constant (typically with/though a lack of exchange with the outside world). The scientific knowledge surrounding pretty much everything is advancing; obtaining new ideas, models, always testing, revising and improving. And removing old, outdated theories at the same time. Always receiving outside knowledge and changing.

That cannot be defined as a closed system.


Though, it is humorous that you brought up a done and the moon. Doesn't the bibal say Earth is caped by a giant dome? ... then again it also says it was a flat.
If I remember correctly, anyway.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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31-01-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Quote:However, if you are trying to imply that human knowledge is a closed system, then no, it is not.

I am stating that the categorical, naturalist reponse of Chas could be paraphrased as "We cannot measure all thought as brain activity... yet."

If you support that position, you might as well as support any Christian's tenet that "We'll see God when we die, so there."

Chas's bias that we are not dualist (not that I care, proving we have a soul or are in a Matrix doesn't prove there is a God) colors his reponse to the truth that not all mind activity is measurable with his canard. He reminds me of people insisting the Moon is green cheese and obviating our need or desire to explore it in person.
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