"The mind is proof of god's existence."
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05-02-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 07:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:As a side not, who in the hell would think anatomy is designed?
I apologize for responding to only one post, but there are many tangents you've gone down, including an utterly ridiculous god-in-the-box He would only make good things and we'd only eat chocolate ice cream (how would we know what is bad or how good ice cream is?) response.
Take a college course in anatomy. Many of us have. The professor, regardless of his stance on evolution, will say many times, "X is designed to work in this fashion." Almost most daily in my course I'd hear that. The irreducible complexity of a cell is on the order of the city of Chicago and that's what Dr. Behe (who I helped host as a guest in my city) was writing about.


First, Behe is a biochemist and not a biologist. Second, he has been thoroughly discredited in his "irreducible complexity" arguments.

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05-02-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 07:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:As a side not, who in the hell would think anatomy is designed?
I apologize for responding to only one post, but there are many tangents you've gone down, including an utterly ridiculous god-in-the-box He would only make good things and we'd only eat chocolate ice cream (how would we know what is bad or how good ice cream is?) response.
Was this directed at my post? Where did I mention "god-in-the-box" or chocolate ice cream? I could have sworn you were talking about morality and not flavors or taste. As for how we know good and bad, good question. So I direct you to your own statement that was, in part, what I had replied about:

PleaseJesus Wrote:OR says biblical law punishes bad, promotes the common good
Please feel free to explain.

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05-02-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 07:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The professor, regardless of his stance on evolution, will say many times, "X is designed to work in this fashion." Almost most daily in my course I'd hear that.

Just because a person uses the word "designed" in describing something, doesn't mean he must be implying that there is a designer who intelligently and deliberately designed that thing. They might be - some of those professors might actually believe in an intelligent designer (but such belief doesn't necessarily make them right) - but others might just be using the word more liberally.

Nature is quite capable of designing things through normal processes of natural selection (evolution). I don't believe in any kind of god, I would never say that some intelligent being designed my eye so that I can see, but I might have said that my eye is designed to see; saying such would be me claiming that "nature" designed it that way through evolution.

Of course, nowadays with the Intelligent Design movement in this country, I'm careful NOT to use that wording since people will clearly take it the wrong way, but not everybody shares that same degree of eclecticism when choosing their words.

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05-02-2013, 11:12 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Quote:Just because a person uses the word "designed" in describing something, doesn't mean he must be implying that there is a designer who intelligently and deliberately designed that thing.
Yes, certainly. I mean that professors who believe in mechanistic evolution recognize that "evolution" has posted super-clear evidences for design.
I can see where someone might study biology and firm their belief in evolution. Studying anatomy there are a great many design elements that point to creation/ID.
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05-02-2013, 11:14 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
Quote:OR says biblical law punishes bad, promotes the common good
Quote:Please feel free to explain.
I certainly will, as soon as you or someone can explain how "bad" and "good" are not subjective, arbitrary constructs. From a Darwinist's perspective, I would not hesitate to say that rape and theft are a part of what Spencer calls the survival of the fittest. They are "good" in a naturalist's world.
So, why bother to show you how the Bible promotes societal good and punishes the bad?
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05-02-2013, 11:24 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 11:14 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:OR says biblical law punishes bad, promotes the common good
Quote:Please feel free to explain.
I certainly will, as soon as you or someone can explain how "bad" and "good" are not subjective, arbitrary constructs. From a Darwinist's perspective, I would not hesitate to say that rape and theft are a part of what Spencer calls the survival of the fittest. They are "good" in a naturalist's world.
So, why bother to show you how the Bible promotes societal good and punishes the bad?
It's interesting that you introduced those terms into the discussion in order to make a point even though you think they are subjective and arbitrary. Consider

When you brought them up, it was in the context of punishment and common good. From that, I infer a moral context. While rape and theft might be "good" in terms of advancing one's kind in the evolutionary process, they are not morally "good".

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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05-02-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 11:14 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:OR says biblical law punishes bad, promotes the common good
Quote:Please feel free to explain.
I certainly will, as soon as you or someone can explain how "bad" and "good" are not subjective, arbitrary constructs. From a Darwinist's perspective, I would not hesitate to say that rape and theft are a part of what Spencer calls the survival of the fittest. They are "good" in a naturalist's world.
So, why bother to show you how the Bible promotes societal good and punishes the bad?


Spencer misinterpreted Darwin. I don't think you are able to speak from a Darwinist perspective.

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05-02-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 11:12 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Just because a person uses the word "designed" in describing something, doesn't mean he must be implying that there is a designer who intelligently and deliberately designed that thing.
Yes, certainly. I mean that professors who believe in mechanistic evolution recognize that "evolution" has posted super-clear evidences for design.
I can see where someone might study biology and firm their belief in evolution. Studying anatomy there are a great many design elements that point to creation/ID.
No, they have not. Nature may, at a surface level, have an appearance of design, but there is no evidence of intelligent design. Just cobbled-together systems.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 11:12 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Just because a person uses the word "designed" in describing something, doesn't mean he must be implying that there is a designer who intelligently and deliberately designed that thing.
Yes, certainly. I mean that professors who believe in mechanistic evolution recognize that "evolution" has posted super-clear evidences for design.
I can see where someone might study biology and firm their belief in evolution. Studying anatomy there are a great many design elements that point to creation/ID.

The only professors who posit evidence for design are the ones who are religious. Just like you, they're looking for proof of their beliefs and confirming their personal bias. Non-religious professors (or anyone else) looking at the same exact anatomical features don't find evidence for design.

When you say "there are a great many design elements that point to creation/ID", isn't that circular reasoning and confirmation bias all rolled into one statement? When you call them "design elements" you're already proving your initial bias - of course you're going to conclude that "design elements" were designed.

If I reword it to eliminate the initial bias, it just sounds silly: "there are a great many evolutionary advantages that point to creation/ID". I can't think of one. Can you name one?

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05-02-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: "The mind is proof of god's existence."
(05-02-2013 11:24 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 11:14 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I certainly will, as soon as you or someone can explain how "bad" and "good" are not subjective, arbitrary constructs. From a Darwinist's perspective, I would not hesitate to say that rape and theft are a part of what Spencer calls the survival of the fittest. They are "good" in a naturalist's world.
So, why bother to show you how the Bible promotes societal good and punishes the bad?
It's interesting that you introduced those terms into the discussion in order to make a point even though you think they are subjective and arbitrary. Consider

When you brought them up, it was in the context of punishment and common good. From that, I infer a moral context. While rape and theft might be "good" in terms of advancing one's kind in the evolutionary process, they are not morally "good".

I don't understand. You are a materialist, a naturalist? How did you arrive at a set of morals? Please tell me where your moral code comes from.
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