The "miracle of the sun"
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12-05-2017, 04:53 AM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
(11-05-2017 09:01 PM)Torment Wrote:  The real obstacle is those 70K people that supposedly witnessed such miracle.

70K? The first time I heard this crap I think it was 5K. I know I've heard 20K, 30K, and 50K before.

Like the 500 who saw Jesus, the number who saw the sun move is just a claim in a story about the event. We don't have 70K affidavits, we have a claim that 70K people all saw the same thing with no corroboration. We don't have any objective evidence of any of it.

What we do have is a large group of True Believers™ who are desperate for a sign and who spend hours staring into the sky. I'd be surprised if some didn't claim to have seen something and others didn't jump on the bandwagon.

We know the sun did not actually jump around. We know that people are prone to optical illusions, wishful thinking, false memories, and biased interpretation of actual events. What makes more sense: (a) god performed a meaningless parlor trick in order to impress a bunch of supplicants and hid it from everybody else or (b) it's a story that got out of hand?

If that's the best their god can do then I'm beginning to think he's Bullwinkle



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12-05-2017, 06:44 AM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
(12-05-2017 04:53 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(11-05-2017 09:01 PM)Torment Wrote:  The real obstacle is those 70K people that supposedly witnessed such miracle.

70K? The first time I heard this crap I think it was 5K. I know I've heard 20K, 30K, and 50K before.

Like the 500 who saw Jesus, the number who saw the sun move is just a claim in a story about the event. We don't have 70K affidavits, we have a claim that 70K people all saw the same thing with no corroboration. We don't have any objective evidence of any of it.

What we do have is a large group of True Believers™ who are desperate for a sign and who spend hours staring into the sky. I'd be surprised if some didn't claim to have seen something and others didn't jump on the bandwagon.

We know the sun did not actually jump around. We know that people are prone to optical illusions, wishful thinking, false memories, and biased interpretation of actual events. What makes more sense: (a) god performed a meaningless parlor trick in order to impress a bunch of supplicants and hid it from everybody else or (b) it's a story that got out of hand?

If that's the best their god can do then I'm beginning to think he's Bullwinkle



I like Dan Barker's take on the 500 who supposedly saw Jesus: 500 people such a curiously *exact* number Wink
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12-05-2017, 06:50 AM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
The wiki article pretty much debunks the claims. I also thought it was interesting that some of the believers at the event said they saw nothing (nor did anyone else not at the event), which further lends credence to the power of suggestion and the optical illusion produced by staring at the sun for long periods of time.

As far as the ground and clothing being miraculously dry after the rain--when the "dancing" sun came out: When you are in a heightened state it is not at all hard to lose track of time. What seemed like "suddenly" could actually have been a much longer duration of time. Either that or God has one massive hair dryer Wink
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12-05-2017, 11:18 AM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
Even assuming it happened (I'm not for a moment saying I believe it did), they saw the event, not the cause. It's the classic argument from ignorance to just assert what the cause was.

This is the problem with any hidden cause. It all looks the same our end whether it was hidden cause A, hidden cause B, or no hidden cause at all.

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12-05-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
I'm surprised why anyone thinks this is anything more than Catholic propaganda, here's a response from Full Circle on another Fatima Miracle thread that I liked:

Fatima Sun Miracle

(10-01-2017 04:36 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  The Fatima miracle can be approached instead of from the viewpoint of how can the thousands of eyewitnesses who say the sun reversed course, zig-zagged or “danced” in the sky be wrong to logically extrapolating what this would physically mean. Since science has shown that the earth revolves around the Sun, for the illusion that the Sun reversed course the Earth would have to have reversed its orbit.

What happens to the passengers of a car when you slam the brakes when traveling at 67 mph? Inertia http://www.classzone.com/vpg_ebooks/ml_s...age_47.pdf would send you flying through the windshield if you weren’t wearing a seatbelt.

We know the average distance of the Earth from the Sun is 93.5 million miles. This means that in 365.25 days the Earth travels 587.5 million miles, this works out to about 67 thousand miles per hour. Inertia would have probably sent everything on the surface into space, tectonic plates would have crumpled like paper and the oceans vaporized. The Earth would have ceased to exist as a planet.

What is more likely? Mass hallucination or that the planet reversed orbit and “zig-zagged”?

People see what they want to see.

I will add to what Full Circle said and point out that this is such an idiotic way to communicate your existence. A god goes through all of these pyrotechnics, yet it wouldn't materialize directly and send a booming voice out of the clouds saying -"I am god!"

Nope, this god just does a cheap fireworks display that for some reason, only the faithful see. This god didn't have anything better to do such as cure cancer or stop a war or feed starving children in Africa, he had to do a cheap stunt that accomplished nothing but helping Catholics believe and use the incident as credulous propaganda. Facepalm

Why wouldn't any reasonable person be appalled at this type of behavior from an alleged god?

This is not a god to be proud of, this god is a cheap propagandist for the Catholic church.

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Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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12-05-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
PS Foiled by the Inquisition...didn’t see that coming. Tongue

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12-05-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
(12-05-2017 12:47 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Do all christian denominations accept it as the miracle from divine??
If not.Why?

Here is a photo of the event. The sun in in the lower right.

[Image: FatimaSun-sky.jpg]

Here are some of the folks watching the sun.

[Image: Crowd-at-Cova-da-Iria.jpg]

A funny thing happens when you look at the sun for any length of time, the retina tries to disperse the rays from the back of the eye. It fights the ultra violet light which makes it seem like the sun is bouncing around. You can do it very quickly and get this effect even after a few seconds...but don't look too long!!! Astronomers have warned people about looking directly at the sun and have talked about this effect. It's got a name but I don't remember what it is.

Adding to that, the day before the event one of the children, a ten years old girl who'd been talking to the Virgin Mary Dodgy (yeah...sure) predicted that the sun was going to do unusual things like spin and dance. Thousands showed up and, sure enough, they saw the sun spin and dance. Can you say "mental suggestion" and "preconceived anticipation"? I can. Yes

Funnily enough, scientists in Lisbon, Portugal, some 60 miles away didn't notice any dancing sun. No astronomer in Europe noticed the sun doing anything odd. No one outside the immediate area noticed anything unusual that day.

It's a bunch of hooey.

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12-05-2017, 07:15 PM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
(12-05-2017 01:22 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(12-05-2017 12:47 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Do all christian denominations accept it as the miracle from divine??
If not.Why?

Here is a photo of the event. The sun in in the lower right.

[Image: FatimaSun-sky.jpg]

Here are some of the folks watching the sun.

[Image: Crowd-at-Cova-da-Iria.jpg]

A funny thing happens when you look at the sun for any length of time, the retina tries to disperse the rays from the back of the eye. It fights the ultra violet light which makes it seem like the sun is bouncing around. You can do it very quickly and get this effect even after a few seconds...but don't look too long!!! Astronomers have warned people about looking directly at the sun and have talked about this effect. It's got a name but I don't remember what it is.

Adding to that, the day before the event one of the children, a ten years old girl who'd been talking to the Virgin Mary Dodgy (yeah...sure) predicted that the sun was going to do unusual things like spin and dance. Thousands showed up and, sure enough, they saw the sun spin and dance. Can you say "mental suggestion" and "preconceived anticipation"? I can. Yes

Funnily enough, scientists in Lisbon, Portugal, some 60 miles away didn't notice any dancing sun. No astronomer in Europe noticed the sun doing anything odd. No one outside the immediate area noticed anything unusual that day.

It's a bunch of hooey.

> Interestingly, there doesn't appear to be anything miraculous going on in either photo. Consider
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12-05-2017, 08:34 PM
The "miracle of the sun"
(12-05-2017 07:15 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Interestingly, there doesn't appear to be anything miraculous going on in either photo. Consider

You didn't look long enough. Keep looking.
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12-05-2017, 08:45 PM
RE: The "miracle of the sun"
Quote:Okay so the pope is coming to Portugal and everyone is going nuts with their beliefs.


I hope the Portuguese lock the little boys away for the duration.

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