The modern god that exists even to Atheists
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14-07-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 08:26 AM)KerimF Wrote:  By the way, do you think an Atheist shouldn't be interested in geometry because it is based on a non-existent object... the point Big Grin

That is mathematics, not atheism. Drinking Beverage

Of course, everyone is free to use his human logic the way he likes.

In my case, all ideas that I have accepted adding to my set of knowledge (since I was a teen) had to be based on the same logical reasoning.
For example, I accepted the definition of the geometrical dot not because it exists but because it is useful to work with in some situations and therefore it has a place in my life Wink Also, even if something does exist and is not useful to me, it has no place in my life.

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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14-07-2016, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2016 11:35 AM by DLJ.)
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 10:27 AM)KerimF Wrote:  ...
Although I didn't get a clear confirmation from any friend here, I think the expression of "the international society" is not heard at all in many regions in the world mainly in the countries that this International Society is supposed to live in!
...

You're right, the confirmation was not clear... so allow me:

No, I have never heard of "the international society". Is it something to which your local media refers?

The closest thing to it that I can imagine is ""the international community" which is a fluid emergent concept that I have never seen defined in print.

(14-07-2016 10:27 AM)KerimF Wrote:  ...
After all, the internet is a well-supervised media on which the transfer of data is controlled automatically so that every region can receive and transmit according to pre-set criteria. But billions of people have no idea about this transparent advanced technology and everyone thinks he is among the best informed ones in the world of what is happening on earth far from his place.

Indeed... What a wonderful world Smile

I'm not sure if you are referring to actual censorship (we have that where I live) or the 'invisible hand' of knowledge management software.

Certainly there are shit-loads (a technical metric) of propaganda mechanisms but one can navigate through that if one seeks out counter-propaganda for comparison.

(14-07-2016 10:56 AM)KerimF Wrote:  ...
So, you were able to live free (as possible); free to think about your existence far from all other's philosophy, theologies, religions and beliefs.

I wonder if you had the time to personally discover the end purpose for you to exist in the realm that we call life; limited/defined by time/space.
Discovering there is no end purpose also makes one's life more stable than following blindly (by hope or faith) some others.

Largely, yes (and I speak for myself here, not Banjo) but not completely... I am a product of my genes and my environment after all.

Evolution-theory leads to Nihilism. Absurdism lets us stare into the abyss with a smile.

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14-07-2016, 11:15 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
At work.

Read the above post. Did not make sense.

KerimF? Perhaps please post your idea in the mostly direct and simple words you can and we'll see how things go. Thumbsup
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14-07-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 09:34 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
Quote:that depends entirely on your view of the al-Assad dictatorship. I dont think Syria was a very safe place for anyone who opposed the Baath party in general and the al-Assad family in particular....for the past 40 years, roughly. However it will be rather difficult to get anyone to confirm what i said in an interview for example, because.....so many members of the opposition died of "lead poisoning".

So you think I should know from the media about a city in America more than its citizens do after they lived in it more than 6 decades.

You talk as if you lived in Middle East and you know personally how people live in its different countries more than I do.
Do i? How? Is my claim about al-Assad wrong? Is this some secret knowledge only people can understand who live in Syria?

Are you denying that the al-Assad regime(s) were/are oppressive dictatorial regimes? Are you denying that human rights got violated on a daily basis since 1971 and that any opposition is/was being oppressed? You have claimed that Syria was stable, which i never doubted. But so was the Soviet union for a long time. Yet that says nothing about the legitimacy or fairness of a regime. The fact that Assad was fighing evil people doesnt make him a fair ruler. The fact that communists in 30s-40s germany were fighting the NS regime didnt make them fair rulers after 1945. Ironically they were engaged in the very same crimes as the NS regime after all.
Im not talking about other participants in the current civil war and my credentials are ultimately irrelevant too. Do you think that the al-Assad regime is/was fair or not?

(14-07-2016 09:34 AM)KerimF Wrote:  So please help me know:
How the royal family, Al-Saud (the close ally of the men on power in America) rule their people?
I bet no one told you that the people in Saudi Arabia are ruled by Al-Sharia of Al-Qaeda (that was introduced with a great success on TV worldwide by G. Bush and Bin Laden on 9/11/2001) since more than 80 years. What do you think? Is it 80 smaller than 40?!
Please dont assume to know what i know about near or middle east history. You may be surprised and embarassed. I know how the Saud family came to power as well as bin Ladens relations, but thats irrelevant to my question. And if you think i am am thinking of the Saud family being any better than al-Assad, then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Please also dont derail from my questions about Syria by changing the topic to Saudi Arabia. I will tell you about SA after you answered about Syria, be sure.
The duration (80/40) of any bad regime also has what exactly to do with what you claimed earlier (Syria being a safe country) or what i asked?

(14-07-2016 09:34 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Do you really think Syrians have accepted anytime being ruled by Al-Sharia as it is applied in Saudi Arabia by the USA close friends?
What reason do you have to think that i do? Did i say or even indicate so anywhere or anywhen?

(14-07-2016 09:34 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Please don't repeat as a tape recorder what your media, so-called free and independent, shows you on your monitors. But, on the other hand, what else can you do other than believing that 80 is smaller than 40 and Al-Sharia of Al-Qaeda is better than the Syrian constitution under which all religions and beliefs, including Atheism are respected?
Again, please dont assume in advance what my positions are on Syria and syrian people (or anything else concerning the near and middle east) and what my sources are.
What did i repeat like a tape recorder? Or are you just....guessing? What do you know about the quality of the media i am gathering my information from? Or are you just....guessing? who is currently acting like a "tape recorder"?
By accusing me of some kind of stereotype "western ignorance/misinformation" (tape recorder) you are commiting exactly what you are trying to accuse me of, looking at your opponent (in this discourse) as a stereotype.
If you are suggesting that i have some kind of "love" for Saud and their regime, for ISIS or any other participant in the civil war, just because they are fighting the Assad regime, and it seems thats exactly what you are suggesting, then you are guilty of being a stereotypical middle eastern dweller who thinks all "westerners" think alike (= stereotype) because their media are making them think so.
You couldnt be more wrong. Dont you see the irony in this?

For your information (condensed in 2-3 sentences): To me it looks like a bunch of lunatics are fighting each other, the roots being laid in europes (mainly france and the UK Tongue ) colonialism, the insane brutality with which islamic factions treat each other (and non muslims of course), and as a result hundreds of thousands of your countrymen were standing at the gates of my country, because they seemed to think to have no better option than to travel thousands of kilometers to start their lives all over again in a country they dont know much of (i think) at all. 15.000 alone in a camp in my hometown of 300.000. To me its a tragedy that one of the cradles of human civilisation (Damascus being the probably oldest permanently inhabited city in history) is in such a state as it is now, and something needs to be done, but seemingly noone ("international community") really wants to, because....politics. Facepalm Weeping

(14-07-2016 09:34 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
Quote:Your obsession with "international society", whatever that is supposed to be in your imagination, is rather frightening to me to be honest. Especially, since you intentionally seem to be so unspecific/ambiguous about it.
If you got something to say, then, by all means, say it.

If you cakcle, you better lay an egg soon as we say here.

If I understood you well:
The concept of "The International Society" is not heard, at all, where you live.
True or false?

If 'true', please help me know in which region you live where the received media never show politicians and political analysts who reminds their masses of the "International Society" anytime they talk about the unbeatable 9/11 terror.

Thank you.
False(ish)
The catch phrase "international society" is used quite often here. Do you know what a catch phrase is? You still havent explained what you mean by "concept". Please do so. As i can just read form a new post while i am writing this, you are thinking about a worldwide censorship by some "secret society", which is maybe your purported "international society"? If so, you are even worse informed than i even could have imagined.
Once again, you are assuming what "i have been told" by politicians and political anylysts. How do you know?
I live in Germany and you are invited and welcome to pay a visit and see for yourself if anything of what you are claiming to know about my part of the world is true or not. After all it was you who claimed at the start of your post, that to be qualified to talk about an area in the world, you have to have visited it.
Do you dare to burst the bubble of your delusion?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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14-07-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 08:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 07:24 AM)KerimF Wrote:  Anyway, I guess you agree with me that even Atheists have no choice but to believe in the existence of the non-existent International Society Wink

No, no one here appears to agree with you.

You haven't provided a definition let alone any evidence.

Well, it seems you too never heard of the modern god that was likely made for some countries in the world only.

Naturally I became curious to know all the countries in which people never heard of it. Unfortunately, my list of these countries has not even one entry Sad

Facts that don't need evidences:
Sheep for milk live in peace because it is the will of their rich owners.
Dogs obeying rich masters deserve much better food and shelters than free dogs do.
Whoever has ears will hear.
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14-07-2016, 11:30 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
At work.

KerimF? Your posts are still not making sense to myself.

Please post your idea in the simplest language you can and we'll see how things go.
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14-07-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 07:24 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 05:12 AM)julep Wrote:  I'm not going to make any statements about "the international society" so that you can play gotcha and continue to refuse to get to the fucking point. I have no idea which conspiracist theory you follow, but you seem to see this society (illuminati? bankers? UN?) as having a level of power and influence that is so exaggerated that it might as well be termed supernatural. Theistic thinking at its finest, but it must be terrifying to believe in such a malevolent god.

If you're pissed off at the UN, you have decent reasons to be.

Your ideas about how other humans think are condescending (as well as odd), no matter how many times you faux-compliment the posters on here. Again, if you would simply lay out your ideas plainly, you'd get a better discussion. The main drawback would be that you couldn't feel superior at shooting down the guesses of people trying to figure out your point from the hints and questions. It seems that feeling superior is more important to you than communicating.

Thank you for reminding me the expression to use in order to get to the f****** point.
Yes, people are allowed to 'piss off' Wink , even openly and via the international media, at UN or 'any' system (political or religious) but the "International Society"... which is supposed inspiring, since 9/11/2001 in the least, the high classes in the world (of all camps) about how to save the world from terrorism, wars and poverty, for a few.

But I also understand it is rather hard to believe that, for example, the high classes in America do form 'one' business family (I guess the word family here is better to use than some others Wink ) while they play the tough rivals before their masses (see the great shows and ceremonies of the FREE elections). But, truth be said, the men on bottom are always raised/convinced to live in a continuous hope and this is better than nothing... and this is in every country in the world, hence not in America only Wink

You expect me find a global solution?
The best I did is to find a personal solution instead Sad which, I am afraid, doesn't suit to others. After all, this is why each of us is given a powerful brain to help him find his best path in life despite all difficulties. By the way, during my school exams, I used asking my brain only for help... not of any other Big Grin Also I depend mainly on it anytime I design a new board which can answer the need of the local market, but not of all markets in the world (that should have their own designers Big Grin ).

Anyway, I guess you agree with me that even Atheists have no choice but to believe in the existence of the non-existent International Society Wink

Anyway, I guess you agree with me that even Atheists have no choice but to believe in the existence of the non-existent International Society.

No, I don't agree with you. The case you have presented for such a society is not convincing.

There's no first world consensus on what to do to solve the global problems you mention, and I don't know why you are writing as if such a consensus exists. Further, while there's a lot of money in politics, it is not pushing a unified agenda. At most, some of the moneyed and powerful are hoping to move every country in which they operate more into oligarchy. I'm not in favor of that, as it would increase the level of misery for most, and I tend to ally politically with attempts to rein in money's influence in politics and government. Even if the would-be oligarchs succeed, though, they will still be working at cross-purposes with one another and undercutting each other's efforts.

You can certainly position your self-imposed isolation as a heroic act of resistance or self-sufficiency. (I would interpret it less benignly, but it also might be your personality to find dealing with others difficult, for whatever reason) Take-your-ball-and-go-home is certainly one of the responses to a situation that is not going as well as a person would like. Plenty of people have done it.
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14-07-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 08:26 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 06:40 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Anyway, I hope I made my point. Although now I forget what that point was???

I was told that in English the word point could also refer to the non-existent geometrical dot which is dimensionless by definition.

By the way, do you think an Atheist shouldn't be interested in geometry because it is based on a non-existent object... the point Big Grin

Because it's not. A point is not a non-existent thing, it is not a thing at all. It is a precise location which exists but which can never be fully represented to infinite precision.

#sigh
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14-07-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 11:11 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 08:38 AM)Chas Wrote:  That is mathematics, not atheism. Drinking Beverage

Of course, everyone is free to use his human logic the way he likes.

In my case, all ideas that I have accepted adding to my set of knowledge (since I was a teen) had to be based on the same logical reasoning.
For example, I accepted the definition of the geometrical dot not because it exists but because it is useful to work with in some situations and therefore it has a place in my life Wink Also, even if something does exist and is not useful to me, it has no place in my life.

Lovely.
But that's not Logic.
Your self-centered universe is not the real universe.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-07-2016, 11:59 AM
RE: The modern god that exists even to Atheists
(14-07-2016 07:37 AM)KerimF Wrote:  
(14-07-2016 05:31 AM)julep Wrote:  Am I misrepresenting your position? No way to know if you won't actually state it.

I am sorry for having no known position Sad
It happens I had to live as a real free independent person.

For example, as you know, marriage should be confirmed/blessed by a third party; likely a civil and/or religious system. So it was out of question for me to get married and submit to any law (civil or religious) by my 'own will' even if this helps my human living flesh to live legitimately one of its greatest pleasures Big Grin

I guess most here (if not all) agree with me that the world is fortunate for having rare free independent persons as Kerim Tongue

Well, that independence doesn't seem to make you happy, and it sure keeps you from doing a lot of stuff, but if that's what you want, go for it.

I'm not going to congratulate you for standing by what I think are kind of stupid principles. If your personal philosophy requires that you avoid submitting to law, fine, then that's what you do. However, I'm not going to pat you on the back when you whine about the drawbacks of that philosophy. You can accept the drawbacks, or change your philosophy, or make exceptions and rationalize them or feel bad about them. It's a matter of indifference to me (or, I suspect, most people) which strategy you choose.
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