The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
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04-09-2012, 03:13 PM
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 02:52 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(04-09-2012 07:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Attacking them while breaking international laws?

I doubt that the drone strikes are breaking any international laws, but we won't know for sure until a case is made. However my doubt has to do with the age of the laws and the fact that they did not envision the scenario we face today, with asymmetric threats and warriors out of uniform. When those are taken into account, I don't believe a court will find the actions illegal.

In any event, the US won't stand for an international law to be a death sentence for americans, or any of our allies. The drones are very effective in targeting terror network personnel and will only increase in use.

We've been fighting wars similar to what we are fighting today for over twenty years.

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04-09-2012, 04:07 PM
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 03:13 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(04-09-2012 02:52 PM)Jeff Wrote:  I doubt that the drone strikes are breaking any international laws, but we won't know for sure until a case is made. However my doubt has to do with the age of the laws and the fact that they did not envision the scenario we face today, with asymmetric threats and warriors out of uniform. When those are taken into account, I don't believe a court will find the actions illegal.

In any event, the US won't stand for an international law to be a death sentence for americans, or any of our allies. The drones are very effective in targeting terror network personnel and will only increase in use.

We've been fighting wars similar to what we are fighting today for over twenty years.

I would put it at 10 years but in any case the international laws go back 60 years to a post WWII environment.
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04-09-2012, 06:43 PM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2012 06:49 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 07:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-09-2012 06:06 PM)Jeff Wrote:  As important as the plan, or perhaps more important, is the leadership to get it done. This is where Romney really shines and Obama is really weak. Every time you guys say "well, Obama would have done X but the Republicans blocked him", what you're really saying is that Obama doesn't have the leadership skills to put a coalition together around a deal, and get the votes he needs. Every President has to deal with a Congress that isn't interested in his reforms or actively wants to block them. Putting together a compromise deal is what politics is all about.

The elephant in the room is the underlying racism prevalent on the right. This prevents any rational compromise.

That's it. Unfortunately. There is still apparently a significant percentage of the US electorate that just can't seem to stomach a black man being in charge. And my voting-lifelong Republican party has embraced them for the sole Machiavellian purpose of regaining power. My party's cries of race-baiting and class-warfare and teatarding fall on this fucker's deaf ears 'cause that precisely describes their strategy. If they think Girly's gonna go along with this strategy with a wink and a nod just so they can regain control, they insult Girly's intelligence. I will so fucking sumo them.

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05-09-2012, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2012 10:50 AM by TrulyX.)
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 01:43 PM)BnW Wrote:  is just hilarious on so many levels. First, what else should the Republicans be running on if not the economy? The economy sucks. And, what does that mean, "if the unemployment numbers were invisible"? You mean if only people didn't know that millions of Americans were unemployed or underemployed, they would think the economy is ok? That's on par with representative Steve King's comments that he personally was not aware of a minor getting pregnant from sex with an adult or incest resulting in pregnancy. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

I don't care if you like Obama, I don't think he's any better or worse than any other option. But, comments that equate to "if only you paid attention to the things that mattered to me and not you, you'd see how right I am" do not have any real credibility.

I didn't say don't pay attention to the economy. Huh

If you can't understand someone's post, ask, or just don't comment on it. I know ignorance is bliss, but wisdom is a virtue.

Quote:that's just on the surface

I want them to talk about economics. They are not taking about economics; at least in a way that actually is important or substantive, and that's my point. I want them to talk about the economy. I want them to talk about their plan, what got us into this economical downturn, how we can fix it, how we can prevent one in the future, what really creates jobs and how, how we can maintain job growth into the future, why their polices would work and why others don't, how their plan can strengthen all families rich, poor, middle class, etc.

All I've heard is that the economy is bad and unemployment is high. They won't talk about how many jobs we were losing at the beginning of this, how many private sector jobs we have created since, how many jobs we bleed out of the public sector, problems in Europe like how they are actually double dipping in places and we are not and what types of policies lead to that there, how GM bounced back, how Wall Street bounced back, how the stock market bounced back, how our bonds and borrowing costs are good even after they got our rating dropped, how the housing market is looking better, etc.

Pay attention to the economy, but not the smoke and mirrors. You have to pay attention to the substantive issues regarding the economy. They won't mention anything about an economical plan; only the fact that the economy is bad. That's my point. You can't seriously run for president if you are treating it like you are running for class president. You have to get into the issues and really discuss them, and not play a popularity contests with a bad economy as your shield from having absolutely no legitimate plans or solutions to a nations problems, especially when we are in times like we are now.

We all know the economy is bad; you have to pay attention to WHY the economy is bad and HOW to fix it.

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05-09-2012, 08:03 AM
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 04:07 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(04-09-2012 03:13 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  We've been fighting wars similar to what we are fighting today for over twenty years.

I would put it at 10 years but in any case the international laws go back 60 years to a post WWII environment.

Wars such as the like began in early 1990. It is 2012.

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05-09-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 02:36 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(04-09-2012 10:43 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  Barack Obama's accomplishments as a leader speak for themselves. If you weren't paying attention or chose not to recognize them, I guess you'll have fun reading about them in the history books, because even with the opposition, Barack Obama's presidency exemplified leadership.

Please give me some examples.

- war in Afghanistan
- war in Iraq
- Libya
- Syria
- Iran
- Financial Sector Collapse
- Total Economic Collapse
- Automobile Industry/GM Collapse
- European Crisis, Debts, Economies, Reforms
- Health Care Reform
- Debt Ceiling/Debt Talks/Bush Tax Cut Talks
- Tea Party/Republicans/AM radios/Fox News/Super-Pac/Big Money opposition
- and so on.

If you made a list of shit that was on Obama's plate at the beginning of his presidency, each one individually could be the cornerstone of defining someone as a great president, and that is with cooperation from the other party. This guy had all the problems, found solutions, got things done, and this was with a whole party, a party within a party, and interest groups, specifically making it their mission to see this guy's presidency as a failure at any and all costs to the American people.

Plus, it seems like majority of his decisions pissed off both people who hated him on the right and people on the left, but he still continually made good decisions and didn't follow the normal political decision making process of making as many people happy as possible. Like Mitt Romney who only believes what people want him to believe.

You're talking about a guy who inherited the largest financial collapses since the Great Depression as a complete blindside.

The economy was collapsing and this guy was in the middle of running for president of the US. He was the one at that time showing leadership skills. Obama was already talking to guys and figuring out how to fix the problem prior to even being president. Imagine getting a call and people telling you that something is about to happen, it's about to be really bad, really really bad, devastating, and we have absolutely no clue how to deal with it, how to fix it, or what can be done, and yeah, by the way, it's about to be your problem if you become president. He without hesitation, at that point, said that we needed to do all we could to bailout the banks and continued on with the same leadership as president, not only with the banks, but with GM whom Mitt Romney at the time would have let collapse. He made hard decision after hard decision in just his first days in the White House. With really no clear direction of which way to go, and no popular way out, he made those tough decisions. He prevented a catastrophic depression. He got the economy back on track. And he did this while still having other goals and other things to deal with.

That's not punk bullshit leadership skills; if you had the wrong guy in the White House, or running for president, there goes the damn neighborhood. If that was Mitt Romney we would not be talking about how GM is running strong, how Wall Street and the stock market are doing great, and how the money is being paid back in full with profits to the tax payers. We'd probably be talking about the total meltdown and collapse of at least one, if not both, of those sectors.

Obama was the guy pushing for a stimulus to save our economy, while the Republicans were doing all they could to make sure it didn't happen. Obama stepped to them and gave them every chance to be on his side, and they blew him off. Not because they thought it was what was good for the country, but because they knew not backing a stimulus would be incredible politics. Obama's economic team misjudged the numbers and they still knew we needed way more money than what was put in. Obama was the one willing to accept less, just to get Republican support. He was naive for doing so, at the time, but he really thought they would be serious. It was a Republican fucking stimulus package. It was tax cuts and infrastructure. You can't believe any of the hype about the Republicans really not supporting it, they were against it for politics and politics only. They accepted the money when they need it, and even when they just wanted it. Not only from the stimulus, but they got government money all of the time. If it wasn't for the tea-party, they would still be taking home massive earmarks that they know damn well helped their districts and local economies.

Should I move on to health care. Obama's biggest mistake as president was assuming that he could make immoral people do the right thing, and that was one of his only mistakes. He knew damn well that passing health care would help Republicans politically, but he didn't do it for politics, he did it because it was the right thing to do. A lot of the people who will be benefiting from the bill don't even vote, and some of them vote against Obama because he's a black socialist. This not so good leader had one of the greatest legislative accomplishments with that bill, and he did it to benefit our people, not himself or his politics.

How much more shit should I add? Do I have to reminded you about his defense accomplishments? I know Republicans are still butt-hurt about the hippie from Chicago shutting them to the fuck up with his stellar foreign affairs accomplishments, a lot of which are probably top secret and we don't even know about yet. He went against his own party and doubled down in the conflicts we were in, set timelines, withdrew troops, hyped up drone attacks, called for killing terrorist leaders left and right, called for killing Bin Laden in Pakistan (something others said they wouldn't do), ended Iraq, got us in and out of Libya with NATO, cracked down on Iran and Syria with sanctions, START etc. With a Republican we'd probably be able to effectively call a lot of those conflicts happening under Obama active wars; we'd be in 4-5 by now. As president you have to say cool and handle the intensity of it without doing anything stupid, and he did that with a lot going on. He had Iraq, Afghanistan, US planned terrorist attacks, the Arab Spring including Egypt, Libya, the conflicts and killings in Syria, he had Iran trying to get weapons, North Korea, handling Israels comments, China and Russia being assholes, and the like.

You have what he did for credit card debt and student loans, Don't Ask Don't Tell, coming out for gay marriage when one of his biggest constituencies (black church leaders and their churches) are opposed, pell grants, having to go back with an executive order on immigration because Congress didn't pass the Dream Act, equal pay for women. He managed to keep unemployment benefits extended, keep taxes from going back up, cutting taxes and giving tax breaks to businesses and individuals, and getting things done for small businesses to make it easier for them to start up, borrow money, get investments, and this is all while Republicans were full on politics the entire time. He had to deal with Republicans playing politics with middle class families at risk; they were willing to allow tax breaks to expire for everyone just so they could say they kept taxes low for rich families. Then they had the nerve to argue that those tax increases, on the rich, would hurt small businesses, acting like they cared, while they were blocking damn near every small business bill Obama was putting forward. He, also, had to make through every debt ceiling talk catching shit, when in the past, it wasn't even a problem, they just raised it and moved on. He also had to deal with the hate and being called anti-American, a Muslim, a terrorist, a socialist, people saying he wasn't born here, and he had to stay cool and focused through all of those types of things that were never even ideas coming out of people, at least to those extremes, before in history.

Then, if he already didn't do enough to piss everyone off, he went into the debt talks with John Boehner where he put medicaid on the table, medicare, defense, social security, along with all the other cuts he was willing to make. He came to a grand bargain and said we have a deal, with people in his party obviously pissed off that he put all of those cuts on the table. Then the Tea Party house members get pissed, Eric Cantor gets pissed, and Paul Ryan goes to John Boehner and tells him to call the deal off, that they don't want to do a deal to make Obama look good, that, for politics, they should not let it happen, keep the uncertainty over the economy and debt, say Obama isn't serious about it, and run on a bad economy using it all as political fuel. We all know what Boehner did after that, he called the deal off and made excuses. And we can see what Paul Ryan is trying to run on with Romney also: Obama's not serious about debt and reform and the economy is bad; coincidence?

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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05-09-2012, 09:46 AM
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 02:41 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(04-09-2012 07:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  The elephant in the room is the underlying racism prevalent on the right. This prevents any rational compromise.

Just curious about how you define "racism" Chas. Can I disagree with Obama without being racist? Obama said that he wants to fundamentally transform America, meaning that he wants to change a lot of things, and the people having their "oxes gored" by those changes are going to have a negative reaction. Isn't it possible that they dislike what he is trying to do, rather than the color of his skin? Does your world view allow for disagreement without racism?

One can disagree without being racist. However, birth certificate and religious affiliation crazies point strongly to racism; these are the desperation arguments.

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05-09-2012, 11:58 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2012 12:01 PM by Diablo666.)
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
I don't see the problem with drones really. Its just another technological advancement that makes our military forces superior. Its not like the US isn't infinitely ahead in that regard anyways.... Its not like we went from fighting a mono e mono fair fight, to gorilla warfare with drones or something. It was never anything close to a fair fight to begin with.

Hell, I am willing to bet that many of the branches of the military actually consists of some of the safest jobs in the world.


Chas you forgot the giraffe, the gorilla, and at least half the other animals in the zoo hanging out in that room too. The republicans hate so many people its not even funny. Poor, women, gays, Hispanics, etc.. etc... etc...
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05-09-2012, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2012 12:05 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(05-09-2012 11:58 AM)Diablo666 Wrote:  I don't see the problem with drones really. Its just another technological advancement that makes our military forces superior. Its not like the US isn't infinitely ahead in that regard anyways.... Its not like we went from fighting a mono e mono fair fight, to gorilla warfare with drones or something. It was never anything close to a fair fight to begin with.

Hell, I am willing to bet that many of the branches of the military actually consists of some of the safest jobs in the world.


Chas you forgot the giraffe, the gorilla, and at least half the other animals in the zoo hanging out in that room too. The republicans hate so many people its not even funny. Poor, women, gays, Hispanics, etc.. etc... etc...

I'm not sure that is what this debate is about. -_-


(04-09-2012 07:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  The elephant in the room is the underlying racism prevalent on the right. This prevents any rational compromise.

I thought the elephant in the room was the National Federation of Republica.

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05-09-2012, 01:20 PM
RE: The most disturbing thing at the Republican convention?
(04-09-2012 02:52 PM)Jeff Wrote:  I doubt that the drone strikes are breaking any international laws, but we won't know for sure until a case is made. However my doubt has to do with the age of the laws and the fact that they did not envision the scenario we face today, with asymmetric threats and warriors out of uniform. When those are taken into account, I don't believe a court will find the actions illegal.
I wasn't talking solely about the drone strikes, but about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war

(04-09-2012 02:52 PM)Jeff Wrote:  In any event, the US won't stand for an international law to be a death sentence for americans, or any of our allies. The drones are very effective in targeting terror network personnel and will only increase in use.
How is this relevant to the discussion?

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