The most incredible plant...
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20-07-2011, 12:21 AM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2011 12:24 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: The most inceridible plant...
(19-07-2011 10:57 PM)The_observer Wrote:  I used to be seriously against the smoking of weed. The absolute last "fight" I had with my ex was about a bag of weed she brought into the house. (It was not about that we split, there where seriously more issues)

Later I realized that alcohol is a bigger tread to society then weed is. (I'm trying to quit alcohol but it's a though job for a beer-snob like me)

I slowly starting to feel kind of stupid for thinking that way about weed. Then again, there are so many addictions already, does the threshold really need to be lowered on an other one?

I'm on the fence... convince me!

I tried various substances (no needles, heroin, and hardcore stuff for me thanks). Many people would probably consider me 'hardcore' for what I have done and I think that is ridiculous. People should have the freedom to make their own decisions. Allot of drug related problems stem from societies unwillingness to tackle this issue where it has the most impact. People need to be more informed and instead of penalising drug users they should be encouraged to perform useful functions in society.

I'm going to pick the most extreme drug with the most stigma attached for the sake of argument.
Eg: Imagine if heroin was legal, there is already enough of a social stigma that the general population wouldn't be rushing to get their hands on it (and I'm not interested). If people got clean heroin it would wipe out the black market, almost no-one would die from it (no adulterants and the concentration is known), and allot of the junky side-effects would vanish. It actually is possible to function more normally on heroin compared with other drugs (alcohol, benzodiazapines, amphetamins, cannabis and obviously hallucinogens) as long as you aren't going through withdrawal.
People should be able to go to a doctor and get their heroin prescription if they are over 18.

Our current approach is try to stop people from getting it rather than helping the needy people who want it and who are perhaps being enslaved by their need. Scumbags (black market) take advantage of these people and otherwise productive people are damaged beyond repair with our current system. How much crime is generated and subsidised by black market drugs?

Why are we so focused on supply when the real issue is demand!

Some of the stuff I did back then I consider stupid now. I did come out of it fine in the end. What I see now is that drug use - in one form or another is prevalent in our society. Legal or Illegal the same problem will exist. The more problems a drug creates, the more social stigma it generates to discourage it's use. (We see this happening with tobacco smoking right now.) Social Pressure is more effective than law enforcement in this area.

The best approach is harm reduction - a combination of education for children and current addicts, combined with social pressure like the anti-smoking campaigns.

What I find ironic is many people supporting our current drug laws are also people that smoke and/or consume ridiculous amounts of alcohol. I'm not having a go at anyone here. I can understand why some people are against drugs given the lack of knowledge in these areas and many not understanding biology/effects of these things. (Why learn about it if your not going to take it.)

When I did what I did I made sure I understood to the best of my ability what I was doing, the risks, the effects, how to minimise any damage (dose up on antioxidants and other neuroprotective stuff, and have safety measures available). My purpose for taking them was to explore different states of mind rather than 'just get high for a while.' I never let myself get addicted - the idea of not being in control of your own actions/desires horrifies me.

I'm not a person that's addiction prone by the look of things. Either way there is always going to be the type of person who is driven by need - regardless of your policy on the supply chain.

The current approach is just illogical, stop attacking supply and deal with the root of the problem! Demand. This time keep the legal system out of it.

This might not happen in my life time! Too many people would lose their jobs.. Less crime, fewer court cases, less law enforcement, fewer prisoners.
Also the political fear-mongering campaigns will hinder allot of progress in this area for a long long time.
Mine isn't the popular generally accepted position. The world is ruled by tyrants who exploit public fear and ignorance. When was the last time an educated/informed decision was made that benefits the majority instead of the few? Sad

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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20-07-2011, 08:04 AM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2011 08:14 AM by Filox.)
RE: The most incredible plant...
I soooo hate when I start writing and then my text disappears...

So what I was writing is that I did all drugs that were available to me when I was a teenager. Even heroin and cocaine, only not intravenously. I was never addicted to any of them and I quit all that garbage more that 10 years ago, now I just smoke weed and 2-3 times a year I tend to take large doses of LSD, but is for my personal enlightenment. I was never addicted to anything because I was always careful, respectful and fearful of all the drugs I was taking and I never suggested to anyone that drugs are good, nor have I ever sad to anyone to take some drugs. I took them because I liked them, but I knew what it was and how dangerous it is, so that is why I stopped after some time.

Cannabis is something completely different. You can not compare it to any other drug or substance people take for medicine, or just for fun. It will not kill you, nor will it destroy your life like heroin or amphetamines. I have a very similar thinking as DeepThought, but I just don't see it possible for drugs like heroin to ever become legal. Yet, I have never seen any valid fact why Cannabis is illegal. Everything I could read in the newspapers, or what politicians are saying is a complete LIE. There is not s single true fact in those statements. One of the biggest is that smoking weed can lead to "harder" drugs, like heroin. That is BS! I tried heroin because I wanted to try it, not because weed didn't get me high anymore, or something as stupid as that. Weed gets me high today same way it got me high always. Their "fact" is that every heroin addict has started with marijuana. That is also not true, everybody starts with CIGARETTES, then with ALCOHOL.

Now, cigarettes and alcohol are socially acceptable and O.K., yet they can kill you of overdose and they cause all sorts of health problems. I am yet to find what marijuana does to human body. 0 (ZERO) deaths and illness in the world are associated directly to Cannabis and smoking the same. This alone is reason enough to legalize it. Also, it is a plant. There are no chemicals involved, it is as God has created it. Smile Also, human body has specific cannabinoid receptors and without those you could not get high, or have any medicinal advantages this plant can provide. They have no other function in our body. This means that we are genetically made to use and receive THC and other cannabinoids from marijuana. Now to the medicinal use of marijuana... Until a 100 years ago, cannabis and all sorts of medicine made from cannabis was used to cure around 600 known illnesses. If only 10% of that was actually true, we are still left with 60 cures for 60 illnesses.

And now back to the Rick Simpsons documentary. If he did not have cancer, he would be exposed a long time ago. If he didn't cure cancer he would be exposed a long time ago. If his "treatment" didn't help anyone, he would be exposed as a quack. If he wanted money, he would not give away the oil for free. If he is in this only to promote weed, he would be some guy who smokes weed all the time and promotes the smoking, not oil use. Apparently, the guy has medical documents about his condition and his cured state now, he has doctors who back him up and a lot of other people who are backing up his story, so until I see evidence he is a quack, I am willing to believe him, because I have heard, read and seen things that can back him up a long time ago. Just now it has all come together and it all makes perfect sense. So, yeah, I do believe that Cannabis oil can have big anti-cancerous effect. Can it cure everything and all cancers? Of course not, we are not kids, nor fools to believe that, but if there is 1% chance it can help you after the modern medicine has said "there is nothing we can do anymore" don't you all think it is well worth to try? If one out of 1000 people is saved by this, isn't it miraculous and unbelievable, doesn't it show that nature can provide for us in so many forms? And is it then stupid to charge people and put them in prison for trying to cure cancer?

Isn't this something EVERY medical institute that is dealing with cancer is supposed to look into?

P.S.
There was a study in the 70's where they wanted to show that THC causes cancer. They have stopped the investigation, because they had an opposite results, it was fighting cancer, not creating it.

@ The_observer
Did this put at least a bit of new light to your perspective? While illegal, we can not research anything, only when it becomes legal can we try to learn something from it, that is why we NEED to legalize it. If you want scientific proof, it need to be legal first... Also, watch those documentaries, everything will be much clearer then.

Oh yeah, you mentioned addictions... Cannabis does not cause any physical addictions only psychological and that is at the bottom of the addiction table. Coffee is worse.

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20-07-2011, 09:26 AM
RE: The most incredible plant...
Well, I do feel that to understand marijuana, it's important to be familiar with the research. Contary to poular belief, there are countless studies that have been done on marijuana and its effects. Virtually all of them point towards the fact that it is harmless at best, and less harmful than tobacco and alcohol (considerably so) at worst. I know I know, back it up Stark! Ok, here's a fascinating look at some marijuana myths. Note the extensive list of research to back up everything that is said:
http://www.lycaeum.org/paranoia/marijuan...ology.html
I particularily like this article because it does address some bad things about marijuana too.

It's important to remember that we are all still walking around with alot of false information in our heads that has been drilled in there since we were kids. "Pot kills brain cells", "pot is a gateway drug", "pot will make you lazy", and after all this, "now go out to a bar and get drunk like a good, law abiding citizen."


As for Rick Simpson:

Quote:If he did not have cancer, he would be exposed a long time ago.
He did indeed have cancer as far as I can tell
Quote:If he didn't cure cancer he would be exposed a long time ago.
I don't need proof that he didn't cure cancer, you need proof that he did. There isn't any.
Quote:If his "treatment" didn't help anyone, he would be exposed as a quack.
A great many people call him a quack. He exposes himself as one everytime he claims marijuana is a cure all, which he does often. His "treatment" undoubtedly makes people feel better. Therefore it DOES help people, but that doesn't mean he can cure cancer. Just the idea of a single trewatment "curing cancer" is ludacris. Cancer cells come in many forms, and different treatments will be more or less effective on different cancers.
Quote:Apparently, the guy has medical documents about his condition and his cured state now
I am sure he does. So does my stepmom who survived breast cancer. Just because they had cancer, and then didn't doesn't proove that marijuana cured them, especially since my stepmom has never even tried it!

The point is, he makes outlandish claims, manages to be convincing, but just doesn't have the evidence to back him up. Marijuana may very well be an effective treatment for cancer, but we just don't know that yet, so to make the claim is to diminish the possibility. For those of us who would like to see marijuana legalized, it is imperative to stick to facts that we can back up. Rick Simpson cannot back his claims with facts, so I feel that he is a poor representative for the legalization of marijuana.

To address addiction, weed has potential to be addictive. Less so than alcohol or cigarettes, but there is potential. But that is NOT a reason for it to be illegal. If addictive properties were a criteria for making things illegal not only would cigarettes and alcohol be illegal, but there would be an argument for the criminalization of chocolate!

I compare much of the stigma marijuana has to religion. Pot is illegal, so those who don't like it don't look at the pros and cons, they simply look for evidence to back up their belief that it should be illegal. That evidence is constantly crumbling around their feet, but they just don't want us to know about it. Here's something to think about. in 2000, 7600 people in the US died as a direct result of taking anti-inflamitory drugs like aspirin. NONE died as a direct result of smoking pot. So how come aspirin is legal?

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20-07-2011, 11:24 AM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2011 11:45 AM by Filox.)
RE: The most incredible plant...
OK, as far as Rick Simpson is concerned I think I will test some of those claims by making oil and trying it out. That seem to be the only way to get evidence, at least for myself, since I will not be in a position to document everything scientifically. First patient I can have is my father who has diabetes and open wounds on his feet for the last couple of years, THC oil is supposed to close them in 2 weeks. Second patient is some doctor who is suffering from cancer, he is doctor of medicine and he is seeking to buy big amounts of weed because he can not do anything with normal medicine, so this is his last attempt to cure himself. I will not sell anything to anyone, but if I am able to produce some oil I will gladly give it to him so he can try and save, or at least prolong his life. Now in order to do that I need to have a long conversation with my father first... And that is a very tricky thing to do, since he is familiar to some things I did in my past, but I consider this topic to be far more important than some laws, fear of his son smoking weed or anything else. I will not stand by and look at my father while he is loosing his feet, because there is no cure in medicine and I think I can help him with my theories. I have to try it, and while I'm at it, I will try to make enough for the cancer treatment. Luckily in all this, the cancer patient is also a doctor, so there will be my scientific proof.

The possibility for all this to work is small, but imagine, just try to imagine if it really works. Me, some economist and IT technician working the cure for diabetes wounds and cancer. Imagine that and tell me you wouldn't at least try it. I have no other method of convincing myself and everybody else that this really works, except to try it out, so I will do that only thing I can.

P.S.
I haven seen any mentioning of leukemia, has anyone heard that THC can cure that as well, because my aunt is suffering from leukemia and I feel the need to save them all...

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20-07-2011, 11:25 AM
RE: The most incredible plant...
Let me start by saying I have a very Libertarian view of pot. People should be able to make their own decisions about their bodies and what substances they put in them, and then be held accountable for any undesirable consequence that may have.
Having said that, why can't people just admit they want pot legalized because they are stoners and they want to get high? Why do they have to go to these lengths with pot cures cancer, pot regrows your hair, pot makes your ding-dong bigger, pot solves Global Warming, etc? It's like fundamentalist Christians trying to use science to support their faith. Just be honest, admit you believe because of faith, not science, and move on! Same with pot. Just admit you like to get high and want to do it without worrying about the cops.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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20-07-2011, 12:05 PM
RE: The most incredible plant...
Of course I do, but I think it is even more important if I can actually help somebody while smoking... The possibilities are endless, for me it only starts with smoking, but I can smoke it legal or illegal and I don't care, I have been smoking it most of my life, but all other thing I can not do. I can not make bio-diesel, I can not make oil, I can not grow it for anything... And I am concerned when I see rainforests destroyed for wood and paper and I know there is an alternative... It all sucks!!! My smoking is pretty irrelevant compared to all other things and benefits.

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20-07-2011, 01:45 PM
RE: The most incredible plant...
(20-07-2011 11:25 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  Let me start by saying I have a very Libertarian view of pot. People should be able to make their own decisions about their bodies and what substances they put in them, and then be held accountable for any undesirable consequence that may have.
Having said that, why can't people just admit they want pot legalized because they are stoners and they want to get high? Why do they have to go to these lengths with pot cures cancer, pot regrows your hair, pot makes your ding-dong bigger, pot solves Global Warming, etc? It's like fundamentalist Christians trying to use science to support their faith. Just be honest, admit you believe because of faith, not science, and move on! Same with pot. Just admit you like to get high and want to do it without worrying about the cops.

Did you even read the other posts?? This is not JUST so people can get high. The medicinal qualities are well documented. I hadn't planned on saying this on the public forum, but I do feel it bears mentioning. I am a licenced medicinal grower. I grow marijuana as a medicine recognized by Health Canada. So to tell me to "admit you like to get high and want to do it without worrying about the cops." is not only wrong, but extremely insulting. One of my patients (here in Canada, a grower grows for specific patients) suffers from pain that 99% of the population will never experience in their lifetimes, and it is constant. She has been on so many meds for pain that her liver began to fail, she lost incredible amounts of weight due to nausia, and has been addicted to FOUR different prescription drugs. Doctors come up with "cocktails" to treat the pain, counteract the side effects of the pain meds, then more drugs to counter those side effects. Now my patient takes TWO prescription drugs, and one of them is marijuana. It eases her pain better than any other drug, including Oxy, and relieves the nausia caused by her other medication.

There are people (that I have had personal contact with) who never even knew that they could be virtually free from arthritis pain until they tried cannabis. Many of these people go to the trouble of extracting the THC and other cannabinoids so they can take it orally to both avoid the dangers of smoking and to reap the benefits of the pain relief with less "head high". (BTW, if you've ever taken Oxy, percoset, or the like, you know that the "high" from them is FAR stronger than cannabis when taken orally).

Plus, all the medicinal qualities aside, hemp grown for paper and fiber is not psycoactive. It could, however, prevent us from cutting down MILLIONS (no exagerration) of hectares of forest for paper, and could also replace cotton crops, while producing a better quality product, with exponentially better yeilds, and all the while using no chemicals, and taking far less nutrients from the ground. (Hemp harvested for these purposes is the stalk with is virtually all cellulose. The leaves and roots can simply be left of the soil, where they compost back into the soil, returning almost all the nutrients, as well as supporting microbial life that makes those nutrients available to plants.)

So next time you tell someone to "admit" something, make sure you aren't making ignorant assumptions about their motives.

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20-07-2011, 01:52 PM
RE: The most incredible plant...
...Oh, and just as a side note: My patients pays me less than HALF of street value for an organically grown product, that is superior to almost anything you can buy ilegally. I make enough money to pay for my costs, and a pittance for my time. I have to do my growing in my spare time since I could never afford to do it when I could be making money. The reason I do it is because I am helping a person who would otherwise either be forced to buy an unknown product from a street dealer, or have to go without a medication that a DOCTOR prescribed for her.


Fuck it pisses me off when people assume I am pro legalization because I wanna get stoned, or because I wanna make a bunch of cash selling weed.

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20-07-2011, 02:05 PM
RE: The most incredible plant...
@SY2502
well that was funny and awkward at the same time. Big Grin

@ Stark
You can't just grow them outside can you? As far as I know they don't make those plucheballs you actually need then. Do you have a special greenhouse for them?

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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20-07-2011, 02:15 PM
RE: The most incredible plant...
Observer> here you can grow either inside or outdoors. They discourage growing outdoors though, plus it would mean only one crop per year, and the restrictions are controlled by the number of plants you have at any given time instead of how much you harvest over the course of a year. So I grow indoors. It also lets me control the conditions the plants are grown in, and eliminates the chances of a neighboring farm contaminating my plants with chemicals from runoff. (I have to be extremely vigilant about keeping my plants free of chemicals since one of my patients has a very compromised immune system.)

The Government also has to approve your security, and it's difficult to get approval for an outdoor grow without being in an extremely remote location.

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