The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-09-2011, 06:28 AM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
Hey, Filox.

That's the thing about freedom of speech. It needs to be universal for it to work.

In Canada, it's illegal to incite hatred. While I love the law, I do recognise that it walks an extremely fine line. But putting people in jail for doing things like critcising the state or the army, for me, is a clear violation of that line.

For myself, I think it's more important, healthier, for people to speak openly about the WBC message than it is to try to bury it or to dismiss it through thoughtless condemnation.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-09-2011, 12:10 PM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
(17-09-2011 04:42 AM)Filox Wrote:  Can somebody from USA explain to me how in the hell can this "church" act and work publicly, without going to jail? They are extremely offensive to homosexuals, ALL other religions, the ARMY (!!), the USA in general, they walk on USA flags, they pick on different celebrities and make gross statements about them. What the fuck? Even in Croatia they would have all been lock in jail or asylum, but first they would all be arrested and prosecuted. And what about the little children? Where is the social service, what the hell are they doing now? If they can not lock them away, why not at least give them a ticket every time they go outside with offensive messages, so that way they would drain their money supply and kill them slowly. What is wrong with USA and criminal justice, I thought you could not behave this way and get away with it. If I were to come to USA and start screaming against "niggers and Jews", how much time would I have to wait before somebody takes me to jail, since I am not a religious figure nor Christian?
I absolutely feel the same way, Filox. It's the ambiguity that gets me. For reference, I live in the US. If someone goes out on the street and starts yelling "I hate queers and dikes " the police would pick them up. But, if someone from a religious organization carries signs that say that, and maybe yell it as well, no one will touch them. Then the crowd will rise up against them and the crowd goes to jail. (That's a blanket statement but it's true in general.) It doesn't make sense. But then... who decides what is free speech and what is not. To me WBC is way beyond reasonable social behavior. But in the end, that's just me. How can I speak for society in general.

If they did not exist, life would be much more comfortable... for me... and certainly for those who are their targets. But who decides and makes provision to stop them? and on what grounds? and at what cost?

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-09-2011, 12:23 PM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
I always wondered why they were never arrested for "disturbing the peace." Could that not be applied to their activities? BnW, or anyone else familiar with US law?

So many cats, so few good recipes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-09-2011, 04:56 PM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
(17-09-2011 12:23 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I always wondered why they were never arrested for "disturbing the peace." Could that not be applied to their activities? BnW, or anyone else familiar with US law?

They are very 'smart' with how they do things. They make sure they have all the right permits, that the follow the letter of the law to the 'T'.

They keep a sharp eye on their congregation, to make sure they are not doing anything illegal.

They also have very very good lawyers (which makes me wonder where they get all that money), and they win every law suit (in fact they often get rewarded for their time)

The church man is a very slippery fellow as well as the rest of his congregation. His wife is nothing short of evil.

I have to disagree with Ghost, saying we need to engage them to make them go away. I personally believe in the 'troll' theory.

I'm sure none of you are new to 'teh interwebz' and know all about trolls and how they function. Trolls feed off of negative energy, they have some sort of personality disorder or something else that makes them think that any attention is good attention. If the media stopped following these people, if everyone ignored them, do you think they would still get money?

It's almost like they are a tulpa, an accumulation of the evil and hatred in the world, the only way to fight a tulpa, is to ignore it, to act like it doesn't exist. Take away the fuel, and the fire ceases to burn.

That's why I rarely discuss this church, if I see it on TV I turn the channel, if I see it featured on a website, I don't go there until the feature goes away, I refuse to pay any micron of attention to the hate machine.

Although I feel funny for going against my own personal taboo, I thought I'd explain it here, and why they are able to get away with so much.

[Image: 1471821-futurama_bender_s_big_score_imag...er-1-1.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes monkeyshine89's post
17-09-2011, 08:02 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2011 08:06 PM by defacto7.)
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
(17-09-2011 04:56 PM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  They also have very very good lawyers (which makes me wonder where they get all that money), and they win every law suit (in fact they often get rewarded for their time)

If I remember correctly, the pastors daughter is their lawyer. Also, I think she is a constitutional lawyer at that. They don't have to pay for it.

It's hearsay on my part... Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I vote YES for the troll theory.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-09-2011, 12:11 AM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
My initial reaction to the WBP when I first saw them on the news and then watched that documentary about them was revulsion and outrage. "How dare they be allowed to be so offensive? How dare they be allowed to picket soldier's funerals?" I wanted them stopped immediately. It was a knee-jerk reaction, and entirely human, and exactly what they rely upon.

But on further reflection, I have to swallow my distaste and be thankful that this group of trolls do what they do, for several reasons. A) They continually test the freedom of speech and assembly and protest laws, which needs to be done or those laws might just disappear someday. B) They draw attention to just how vile the Christian religion is. Anyone who checks their statements, such as 'God Hates Fags' against the pertinent passages in the Bible, will see that they have justification for that particular belief. Obviously, they've extrapolated to say that God hates the USA government and the Army, since there is no mention of either in the Bible, but their logic is that any country that allows Gays to live in direct contradiction to God's edict that all Gays must be killed, would draw God's ire. Not exactly an illogical leap. God was known to smite large populations for displeasing him in the Old Testament, on numerous ocassions. We all know where the word 'Sodomy' originates. The WBP are merely trying to head off a similar fate for the USA, if they honestly believe God is still capable of wiping out entire populations who piss him off. That all of this is utter nonsense and happens to raise the hackles of fellow Christians should perhaps make people question just how real God is, and how much they actually believe in the literal truth of the Bible. By doing so, the WBP provides a public service.

And then there is reason C) Once upon a time, Christians responded to any atheist who dared to speak out in public with revulsion and horror and abject hatred. It was (and still is in many countries) against the law to protest God in public, or to blaspheme even in private. People were jailed, tortured, and executed for not adhering to a religion they did not believe in and having the temerity to speak out against it, particularly in public. So for any atheist to call for the WBP to shut up or be charged with a crime, etc., is a bit hypocritical. Quite a few Christians would consider a website like this one far more insulting and outrageous than anything the WBP might do on ocassion.

So I for one am in no hurry to see the WBP go away or be stopped from doing what they do. I hope they continue to get all the attention they crave. I figure as long as they can get away with it, I can get away with publicly stating there is no God and anyone who believes there is has his head up his ass. And if anyone questions why I am so opposed to religion and why I can't just "leave Christians alone, since they do no harm", I can point to the WBP as an example of why religion does do harm and why atheists must speak out, or be ruled by ignorant bigots and tyrants who get their "morality" and sense of "justice" from the Bible.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes hotrodmike's post
19-09-2011, 04:11 PM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
Hey, Monkey.

Quote:I have to disagree with Ghost, saying we need to engage them to make them go away.

Slow down, homey. I said we should speak openly ABOUT them, not TO them. Big difference. And I don't care if they go away or not. I believe it was wordsmith Phil Anselmo of the seminal metal band Pantera who once quipped, “They can lick my sack.” I'm saying that it's better for the rest of us to admit that they exist and discuss what they’re doing and what that means to us than to pretend they don’t exist and brush them under the rug by putting them in jail.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-09-2011, 11:10 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2011 11:12 PM by 17thknight.)
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
(17-09-2011 04:42 AM)Filox Wrote:  Can somebody from USA explain to me how in the hell can this "church" act and work publicly, without going to jail? They are extremely offensive to homosexuals, ALL other religions, the ARMY (!!), the USA in general, they walk on USA flags, they pick on different celebrities and make gross statements about them. What the fuck? Even in Croatia they would have all been lock in jail or asylum, but first they would all be arrested and prosecuted. And what about the little children? Where is the social service, what the hell are they doing now? If they can not lock them away, why not at least give them a ticket every time they go outside with offensive messages, so that way they would drain their money supply and kill them slowly. What is wrong with USA and criminal justice, I thought you could not behave this way and get away with it. If I were to come to USA and start screaming against "niggers and Jews", how much time would I have to wait before somebody takes me to jail, since I am not a religious figure nor Christian?


Because it is not the government's right, nor is it yours, to choose what someone can or cannot say. Some religious people would say this site is offensive to them, should everyone here be jailed? Should religous people be jailed for celebrating Christmas if it offends you?

They are breaking no laws. It doesn't matter who they offend or what they say. They have a right to say it.

I spent 10 years in the military, and I would defend their right to say this vile shit with my life, and if anyone tried to jail them for it, I'd kill that person for making the attempt.

The right to Free Speech is more important than what offends you. It is the foundation of a free society. If you don't like what they're saying, defeat them in the domain of ideas. If your ideas are incapable of defeating theirs, then so be it. The remedy is not prison.

(18-09-2011 12:11 AM)hotrodmike Wrote:  B) They draw attention to just how vile the Christian religion is.

No they don't, and even attempting to make a comparison between these monsters and the average Christian is an absurd hypocrisy. Such statements do FAR more harm to you and anyone else espousing reason than anything the Westboro Church could say or do.

You may as well take the "Hurrr you're just like Hitler" argument.

Beyond the fact that it's patently not true. Stop being a hateful bigot, you're not different than the people you decry.

[Image: 81564_gal-1.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2011, 03:46 AM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
@ 17thknight

Yes, freedom of speech is cool and super and all that, but there is a line between freedom of speech and being racist with offensive messages and that is the thing for the court to decide. Because, as I have stated in my previous post (this is not the way I think, just an example) if I hate black people and I come to New York and start yelling on the street that all "niggers should be killed", that is no longer my freedom of speech, that is pure racism and hate speech, so that is something for me to pay by going to jail or paying a fine. Same is with them, they are way too hard and offensive in their "parades" for this to simply pass as a freedom of speech.

Further more, if you celebrate Christmas or if we write on this forum, it is not the same thing as going to military funerals and yelling how they (the dead) have got what they deserved. We on this forum are not pushing anything to anyone, this forum is for those who want to come here, WBC are not hidden or polite (as celebrating Christmas), they are very invasive and loud, so it is not the same thing.

You may see this as their freedom of speech, but I see it as crossing the line between freedom of speech and racist hate speech. Now we are (again) back to hypocrisy of religions and governments, religions are more protected than non-religious people/groups.

Oh yeah, and I know that walking on American flag is not freedom of speech, nor legal thing, if nothing else, they must be punished for that, that is not legal in any country. Or you think that is also freedom of speech?

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2011, 06:15 AM
RE: The most repulsive comment, a theist has ever said.
I think I'll have to agree with Filox here (must be the first time, eh Wink), I love free speech but that doesn't mean that people should be allowed to incite hatred or in other ways verbally denigrate groups of people.

It often seems like there's double-standards where hate-speech is not considered hate-speech if someone from a religious institution is making the statement whereas anyone else would be arrested.

In Sweden we had one of these cases fairly recently, there was a priest who said that homosexuals are a cancer on society. He was convicted in court, but at a higher level he was acquitted because the judge said that the EU-court would acquit him on grounds of religious freedom.

By the way, Filox, are you saying it is illegal to walk on the Croatian flag? In Sweden I don't think there's any law concerning how to handle a flag. As far as I know it's allowed to walk on it, use it as toilet paper or burn it if you feel like Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: