The naive conservative claims on the extent of Detroit's demise.
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02-08-2013, 01:26 PM
RE: The naive conservative claims on the extent of Detroit's demise.
(02-08-2013 01:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 01:03 PM)janthuffy Wrote:  This is completely false.

Even one of your Atheist gods admits: "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."

- Richard Dawkins

But do these racial characteristics correlate? Yes, they do.

[Rosenberg NA et al (2002) Genetic structure of human populations. Science 298:2381--2385]

"Analysis of multilocus genotypes of 1,056 individuals from 52 populations [which self-reported their race] did allow an inference of group structure and that five genetic clusters derived from that analysis of purely genetic similarities corresponded largely to major geographic regions [which also correspond to self-reported racial categories]."

[Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies (2004)]

"Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four "self-reported" race/ethnicity categories (genetic cluster membership and self-identified race coincided in as many as 99.9% of the cases)." Of 3,636 subjects (who self identified as White, African American, East Asian, or Hispanic), only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity."

Everyone recognizes that sex is a biological category. For purposes of comparison, the discordance rate between self-reported sex and markers on the X chromosome in the study was actually higher that the discordance rate between self-reported race and the genetic cluster membership.

Neil Risch (who also lead the first study I mentioned) and his team of geneticists found: ''The correspondence between genetic cluster and self-identified race/ethnicity is remarkably high... Accordingly, in this case, major self-identified race/ethnicity and genetic cluster are effectively synonymous'' (Tang et al. 2005, 271)


[Witherspoon DJ et al (2007) Genetic similarities within and between human populations. Genetics, 176:351--359]

A good measure of the robustness of racial genetic differentiation is: ''How often does it happen that a pair of individuals from one population is genetically more dissimilar than two individuals chosen from two different populations?'' In fact, if many thousands of loci are used as a basis for judging genetic similarity and when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations, the correct answer, is: ''Never''

[Brues AM (1990) The once and future diagnosis of race. In: Gill GW, Rhine S (eds) Skeletal attributions of race. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Albuquerque]

This study covered 17 populations over the world and that relied on 34 different measurements. It managed to assign 98% of the specimens to their correct major racial group.

[Ousley S et al (2009) Understanding race and human variation: why forensic anthropologists are good at identifying race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:68--76]

This study had a success rate of 80% in distinguishing between American Whites and Blacks, although it used just two variables. With seven variables, however, it reached the reliability of 95%, and with 19 variables the probability of correct classification rose to 97%.

[Konigsberg LW et al (2009) Estimation and evidence in forensic anthropology: sex and race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:77--90]

Also, estimating generally the reliability of attributing a given data point to one of the five racial categories, this team of experts calculated that under some realistic conditions it is sufficient to use as few as 13 characteristics to have the posterior probability of the correct classification attain the value of 99%.

There are morpohological and phenotypic variations among human populations. These are generally but not entirely geographically correlated, entirely attributable to the successive bottleneck effects of founder populations reaching new regions of the Earth. So does race exist? In a "black people are black" sense, yes. The sun also rises, if I'm not mistaken.

There is no correlation with anything further.

Yes there is. Though you're probably a fan of Stephen Jay. Gould, an egalitarian fraud.
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02-08-2013, 01:29 PM
RE: The naive conservative claims on the extent of Detroit's demise.
(02-08-2013 01:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 01:03 PM)janthuffy Wrote:  This is completely false.

Even one of your Atheist gods admits: "However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."

- Richard Dawkins

But do these racial characteristics correlate? Yes, they do.

[Rosenberg NA et al (2002) Genetic structure of human populations. Science 298:2381--2385]

"Analysis of multilocus genotypes of 1,056 individuals from 52 populations [which self-reported their race] did allow an inference of group structure and that five genetic clusters derived from that analysis of purely genetic similarities corresponded largely to major geographic regions [which also correspond to self-reported racial categories]."

[Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies (2004)]

"Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four "self-reported" race/ethnicity categories (genetic cluster membership and self-identified race coincided in as many as 99.9% of the cases)." Of 3,636 subjects (who self identified as White, African American, East Asian, or Hispanic), only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity."

Everyone recognizes that sex is a biological category. For purposes of comparison, the discordance rate between self-reported sex and markers on the X chromosome in the study was actually higher that the discordance rate between self-reported race and the genetic cluster membership.

Neil Risch (who also lead the first study I mentioned) and his team of geneticists found: ''The correspondence between genetic cluster and self-identified race/ethnicity is remarkably high... Accordingly, in this case, major self-identified race/ethnicity and genetic cluster are effectively synonymous'' (Tang et al. 2005, 271)


[Witherspoon DJ et al (2007) Genetic similarities within and between human populations. Genetics, 176:351--359]

A good measure of the robustness of racial genetic differentiation is: ''How often does it happen that a pair of individuals from one population is genetically more dissimilar than two individuals chosen from two different populations?'' In fact, if many thousands of loci are used as a basis for judging genetic similarity and when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations, the correct answer, is: ''Never''

[Brues AM (1990) The once and future diagnosis of race. In: Gill GW, Rhine S (eds) Skeletal attributions of race. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Albuquerque]

This study covered 17 populations over the world and that relied on 34 different measurements. It managed to assign 98% of the specimens to their correct major racial group.

[Ousley S et al (2009) Understanding race and human variation: why forensic anthropologists are good at identifying race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:68--76]

This study had a success rate of 80% in distinguishing between American Whites and Blacks, although it used just two variables. With seven variables, however, it reached the reliability of 95%, and with 19 variables the probability of correct classification rose to 97%.

[Konigsberg LW et al (2009) Estimation and evidence in forensic anthropology: sex and race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:77--90]

Also, estimating generally the reliability of attributing a given data point to one of the five racial categories, this team of experts calculated that under some realistic conditions it is sufficient to use as few as 13 characteristics to have the posterior probability of the correct classification attain the value of 99%.

There are morpohological and phenotypic variations among human populations. These are generally but not entirely geographically correlated, entirely attributable to the successive bottleneck effects of founder populations reaching new regions of the Earth. So does race exist? In a "black people are black" sense, yes. The sun also rises, if I'm not mistaken.

There is no correlation with anything further.

Well the problem here is there is a greater degree of genetic difference between west africans and say southern africans then there is between either group and Europeans. Race is out moded.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-08-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: The naive conservative claims on the extent of Detroit's demise.
(02-08-2013 01:26 PM)janthuffy Wrote:  Yes there is. Though you're probably a fan of Stephen Jay. Gould, an egalitarian fraud.

The articles you mention don't seem to think so. I'm not sure what bearing Gould has on anything.

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02-08-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: The naive conservative claims on the extent of Detroit's demise.
(02-08-2013 01:29 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 01:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  There are morpohological and phenotypic variations among human populations. These are generally but not entirely geographically correlated, entirely attributable to the successive bottleneck effects of founder populations reaching new regions of the Earth. So does race exist? In a "black people are black" sense, yes. The sun also rises, if I'm not mistaken.

There is no correlation with anything further.

Well the problem here is there is a greater degree of genetic difference between west africans and say southern africans then there is between either group and Europeans. Race is out moded.

You are perpetuating Lewontin's Fallacy. This has been thoroughly debunked. The guy is as much a fraud as Stephen Jay Gould.
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02-08-2013, 01:38 PM
RE: The naive conservative claims on the extent of Detroit's demise.
(02-08-2013 01:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 01:26 PM)janthuffy Wrote:  Yes there is. Though you're probably a fan of Stephen Jay. Gould, an egalitarian fraud.

The articles you mention don't seem to think so. I'm not sure what bearing Gould has on anything.

Gould is to statistics what Madoff is to investments.

Top 100 Stories of 2011 #59: The Mismeasure of Stephen Jay Gould

"Looking deeper into Stephen Jay Gould's claims has revealed he was guilty of the same sins he decried in others... All the data relevant to Morton’s alleged bias—his measurements and calculations—contradicted Gould’s claim. Morton’s errors didn’t show a pattern of bias; Gould’s did.... Among the 308 craniums Lewis and his collaborators remeasured, the three types that Morton had most overestimated were Egyptian, Seminole, and “Native African Negro.” In other words, his errors were contrary to his alleged bias...All of Gould’s errors and unexplained methodological quirks narrowed the racial gaps." (discovermagazine)
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02-08-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: The naive conservative claims on the extent of Detroit's demise.
Again - what the heck does Gould have to do with anything?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

No correlation is hyperbolic. Sure, I'll admit that.

So what is correlated between human races (also: define race and give examples), beyond the superficial morphological differences used to establish the categories?

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