Poll: After I asked myself the biggest "Question" there is.
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The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
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14-02-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 09:58 AM)bemore Wrote:  1: The universe is breathing. Matter does not escape black holes but is somehow condensed and trapped within them. Over an infinite amount of time all stars collapse and become black holes and eventually they all consume one another (metaphorically breathing in) Once all matter and black holes are (or to a certain point)consumed, an event happens which releases all of the matter (metaphorically breathing outwards). Its is an endless cycle.

I seem to recall that Hawking recently showed that black holes do not have an event horizon, and that the implication of that, would be very profound from the perspective of our understanding of cosmology.

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14-02-2014, 12:26 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 11:45 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I seem to recall that Hawking recently showed that black holes do not have an event horizon, and that the implication of that, would be very profound from the perspective of our understanding of cosmology.

I am not very clued up on cosmology (nor black holes). How would it affect our perspective?

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

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14-02-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 12:26 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(14-02-2014 11:45 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I seem to recall that Hawking recently showed that black holes do not have an event horizon, and that the implication of that, would be very profound from the perspective of our understanding of cosmology.

I am not very clued up on cosmology (nor black holes). How would it affect our perspective?

I'm speaking off the cuff here, but IIRC, the implication is that there would not have been a bang singularity at all, and that the big bang happened within a pre-existing fabric of spacetime. If someone else understands this better, please chime in.

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14-02-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 12:52 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(14-02-2014 12:26 PM)bemore Wrote:  I am not very clued up on cosmology (nor black holes). How would it affect our perspective?

I'm speaking off the cuff here, but IIRC, the implication is that there would not have been a bang singularity at all, and that the big bang happened within a pre-existing fabric of spacetime. If someone else understands this better, please chime in.

Hawking's recent comments regarding black holes are while cosmically significant, not particularly of significance to cosmogeny.
(well - they kind of are, insofar as it concerns the nature of singularities...)

There are indeed proposals which place "the" big bang and our universe within a larger framework of "existence" of some sort, to be sure. To call that spacetime is a bad choice of words, because it would be, necessarily, in no way similar to the structure of our universe as seen from within our universe.
(but not having good words for things is par for the course so far as modern physics is concerned, seeing as our vocabulary and indeed modes of thought are so deeply rooted in a macroscopic intuitive physical understanding which is hopelessly and congenitally wrong)

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14-02-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(13-02-2014 06:12 PM)sporehux Wrote:  " what is the Meaning of life, how could god come from nothing, how could the big bang come from nothing, can something come from nothing, was there always something to come from and how is that possible. "
One question at a time please

(13-02-2014 06:12 PM)sporehux Wrote:  what is the Meaning of life
It seems that life just happened. A result of replicating structures becoming more prevalent, then more efficient, more successful replicating structures becoming more prevalent than less successful ones. Structures that could move were more successful than non moving ones. Structures that could move in a desirable direction were more successful than ones moving randomly, structures that could observe their environment being more successful than those that could not. Life didn't happen due to an end goal, it was a result of replication, replication with modification and time.

(13-02-2014 06:12 PM)sporehux Wrote:  how could god come from nothing
What's a god?
If it is a natural living entity then refer to above.

If it is a supernatural magical entity then refer to above plus also realise that some living entities reached a level of consciousness, and as such developed an imagination and started to explain events using their imaginations.

If a god is a supernatural magical entity that is real rather than imaginary and created existence from nothing, then I have no idea how such an entity could exist, how it could have knowledge without information without data, without experiences, without time. I have no idea how a supernatural magical entity can create existence, manipulate existence or even observe existence. I think the theological answer is that god is omnipresent being everywhere and everywhen, always was and always is. God can do stuff because god is all powerful thus has no limits thus creating something from nothing is a trivial task. Fantastic explanation huh? or maybe just Fantastical?

(13-02-2014 06:12 PM)sporehux Wrote:  how could the big bang come from nothing
Who said the big bang came from nothing? Scientists don't know what was around prior to the big bang (beginning of the current expansion of our own universe). Is nothing possible? Wouldn't that violate the uncertainty principle?

(13-02-2014 06:12 PM)sporehux Wrote:  can something come from nothing, was there always something to come from and how is that possible.
At the macro level we have cause and effect.
The macro is a massive collection of the micro.
At the micro level we have consistent probability which requires no cause.
Can something come from nothing? According to the uncertainty principle it would be impossible to know the exact energy levels at an exact point in time thus there can't be a point in time where there is known to be zero energy.
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14-02-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Is nothing possible? Wouldn't that violate the uncertainty principle?

'Nothing' is not possible. If there were nothing, then there would also not be the axioms of logic. For something to be possible, the axioms of logic must apply.

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14-02-2014, 04:01 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 02:57 PM)toadaly Wrote:  'Nothing' is not possible. If there were nothing, then there would also not be the axioms of logic. For something to be possible, the axioms of logic must apply.
But then axioms of logic have no physical exists they are conceptual only.
Concepts can always "exist" e.g the concept of a circle where all points are equal distance from a single point.

There is a distinct different between physical existence and conceptual existence. If god is conceptual only then god cannot create existence nor manipulate existence nor have knowledge.
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14-02-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 02:57 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(14-02-2014 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Is nothing possible? Wouldn't that violate the uncertainty principle?

'Nothing' is not possible. If there were nothing, then there would also not be the axioms of logic. For something to be possible, the axioms of logic must apply.

I think that's backwards. Logic is a construct to describe reality, not the other way around.

Not that "nothing" is a particularly physically coherent concept.

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14-02-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 04:02 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I think that's backwards. Logic is a construct to describe reality, not the other way around.

Not that "nothing" is a particularly physically coherent concept.

The axioms of logic aren't a construct, they're axiomatic. Big Grin

There's no way to talk about them not existing, without invoking them. For this reason, 'nothing' can only ever be discussed in vague ways.

But ok, imagine if you will, nothing. Since noncontradiction does not apply there, there is nothing to prevent something. ...so here we are. Cool

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14-02-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: The origin paradox. "something from nothing"
(14-02-2014 04:17 PM)toadaly Wrote:  The axioms of logic aren't a construct, they're axiomatic. Big Grin

There's no way to talk about them not existing, without invoking them.

Which need only imply that certain ways of looking at things are inextricably foundational to our perceptions.

The universe doesn't behave according to human laws. Human laws are a description of the universe.

(14-02-2014 04:17 PM)toadaly Wrote:  For this reason, 'nothing' can only ever be discussed in vague ways.

I don't know; attempting to reason out minimum possible states has been fairly fruitful.

(14-02-2014 04:17 PM)toadaly Wrote:  But ok, imagine if you will, nothing. Since noncontradiction does not apply there...

Why?

(14-02-2014 04:17 PM)toadaly Wrote:  ... there is nothing to prevent something. ...so here we are. Cool

Why?

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