The parting of the Red Sea
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26-07-2016, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2016 10:03 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
(26-07-2016 05:59 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  1. Is it also your view that there was no expulsion of the Hyksos as stated by Josephus? Certainly if one googles the words, it comes up with lots about the subject including Wiki articles which are generally based on peer-reviewed works. Josephus clearly states that there was an expulsion and that they built Jerusalem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

No. Josephus had no way of knowing what really happened. He accepted the Biblical narrative of everything. The Hyksos were not the Jews.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...he-hyksos/

Quote:2. If you dispute both Exodus and Josephus, is that because by accepting any validity to them at all, you have to accept there may be a possibility that the identity of the "Jews" is not as it is now thought and that they were, in fact, Armenians?

No. It's because there is no evidence for that.

Quote:There is atheism, and then there is nihilism, where everything ever written is a myth, and I'm not sure I am prepared to accept that all human knowledge about these things is so fundamentally flawed if it isn't written down on paper, that we can't look at any legend or story and try to see if there is something real behind it.

Mythology is not nihilism. Your "presentist" view of mythology is warped. Mythology is how ancient cultures transmitted, what they considered, "truth".

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26-07-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
(26-07-2016 09:22 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  CL, I am not sure I am following your train of thought.

My position is fairly simple, that there was an old civilization which centered in the Near East due to reasons of trade, that people moved about on land and by sea going back to Neolithic times http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/...ope-by-sea Whereas they were illiterate, they used methods which we don't use now to record events, remember them, to navigate, tell time, explain life as they knew it to themselves. In terms of a God, if the Judeo Christian notion of a god was a male figure in whose image man was made and that he lived in the heavens, I look up to the night sky and the big man up there is Orion. The myths surrounding Jesus are those of Horus, who is represented by this star sign, the moon and the sun. That is the largest and most significant "heavenly" configuration there is. This religion spread to the south of England where Stone Henge was built to worship the same god. It is everywhere, like god, sees everything from up there with his "ay", the moon. He drives away the darkness, climbs a hill with a cross behind him, has a phallus (belt) which he created things with.... he even has a dog. This was god. The Jews must have been Horus worshippers. Whether the people of Syria, where Jesus is supposed to have lived, is inhabited by Armenians who migrated to Syria and returned, or never left, my point is that this is the cult or religion to which Jesus, in my mind, is preaching and his message is Hellenistic. Beyond that, CL, I really have little interest in the subject. I was trying to get to some kind of truth but the prevailing attitude here is to try to be "sophisticated" by saying there are all sorts of ideas, interpretations, etc etc, as you seem to be saying, without ever addressing the points I have made. No one has dared even discuss it. I feel I might as well be among Christians at Sunday school and feel afraid to question about the resurrection because the others won't like me. I thought this forum was for free thought about religion, not intolerance of different ideas.

More of the black & white fallacy... why? Why do you think of anything as a must?

Yeah there is a lot of similarity in these gods of these regions as myth spread and slightly alters for a culture. Though, there is no 1 only human figure god, this reaction to being so obsessively focused on Orion and the Horis/other figures on him is not at all conclusive. In the proto-IndoEuropean region areas, which you have right as being influential, there births the trends of pantheons, that's why so many of these regions have similar god types. They do follow trends from the stretches of India to England, yeah you have that right... but its not solely about Orion the Hunter. The archetypes of a skygod/weathergod, to have the similar archetype fertility goddesses, harvest god, war god. The mythos of the ranges from the greeks, norse, celts, Assyrian, canaanites, babylonian, egyptian, indus valley regions have deep similarities. There is nothing vastly unique in that time period, and out of the wargod types, that's what El-the jewish god was & is known through data and research about the Canaanite lore is from. He was a wargod in that pantheon and in relation with Ashera. Just as Aries or Thor or other related spawned off cultures had. But these are also pantheon full of human being deities. There is nothing in their human form of a skygod that is solely associated to one constipation where figures spawned from. That claim is a bold assertion and it lacks details and support in so many ways you disturbingly seem to not care about.

This is a forum for whatever it happens to want to be is also dealing with people being fine pointing clear flaws out to folks and not placating irrational conclusions and assertions in this manner. If perhaps you were able to rephrase such ideas in ways that aren't littered with blatant logical fallacies and ignoring any path of evidences while not making certainty claims, you might seem to have respectable points.

Besides, what does you have little interest in the subject beside that mean? You mean actually knowing about the ancient spread of ideas of gods, mythologies, human culture, etc. besides this horus/Jew connection? is that what you have very little interest about? Then wouldn't the fact that people, yes actually responding to your points showing how it's unfounded in contrast to the interest by many other people that showcase fieldworks of evidence in leading to vastly other conclusions in origins of details.

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26-07-2016, 03:50 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2016 09:03 PM by DLJ.)
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
Hi All,

I thought it would be fun to jump in as I just published The Covenant, a historical essay on the Abrahamic Covenant that can be downloaded for FREE from my blog. In this essay, I offer strong evidence suggesting that Abraham never made a Covenant with a divine entity, but with a powerful overlord instead. The gist of it is that the God of the Bible evolved from a deified man, much like the Pharaohs of the time… When adopting this perspective, the entire biblical history can be understood in its historical context, something we have failed to do until now. I'm happy to develop this in a separate topic...

I also believe it can be shown that the Exodus did take place, but not in the way the story is reported in the bible. I will first show it is possible to fix the biblical chronologies. I will then explain what I believe Exodus really was...

In his book King Hammurabi of Babylon: a Biography(1), Marc Van de Mieroop mentions an inscription of Nabonidus (c 556-539) that refers to a tablet of King Burnaburiash (c 1359-1333). This tablet speaks of Hammurabi as having "lived 700 years before him. " Van de Mieroop reports that calculations from king Burnaburiash were "substantially off" as we now that Hammurabi did not reign of (c 1359-133) - 700 = c 2059-2033, but some 250 years later.

I explain in The Covenant how biblical chronologies were originally based on the sexagesimal system, but that they were poorly converted at the time of Nabonidus. Fifty years ago, George Sarton wrote:

The Greeks inherited the sexagesimal system from the Sumerians but mixed it up with the decimal system, using the former only for submultiples of the unit and the latter for multiples, and thus they spoiled both systems and started a disgraceful confusion of which we are still the victims. They abandoned the principle of position, which had to be reintroduced from India a thousand years later. In short, their understanding of Babylonian arithmetic must have been very poor, since they managed to keep the worst features of it and to overlook the best. This must have been due to deficient tradition rather than lack of intelligence, or else, to the fact that, as we should remember, intelligence is always relative.(2)

Sarton stresses that such mistakes were common among the Greeks, and that they were probably derived from a deficient tradition.

I believe that these "mistakes" can be corrected using the 6/10 multiplier (see demonstration in the book). Applying this factor, we find that Hammurabi would not have lived 700 years before Burnaburiash, but rather 700 * 6/10 = 420 years before him, or (1359-1333) - 420 = c. 1779-1753. Indeed, we know that he reigned from 1792 to 1750.

By systematically applying the 6/10 multiplier to ALL dates of the Old Testament, I show it is possible to reconstruct a biblical chronology that "sticks" to history.

The information in 1 Kings 6: 1 tells us that the Exodus took place 480 years before the building of Solomon's Temple (966 BCE), or towards 1446 BCE. Of course, everyone knows that these dates do not match the reign of Ramses II. However, by applying the correction, we find that the Exodus took place 480 * 6/10 = 288 years before the building of the Temple, or in 1254 BCE, which is precisely in the reign of Ramses II. We also find that this date corresponds precisely to the signing of the peace treaty of the Battle of Kadesh. This Battle marked the beginning of the end of 300 years of Egyptian domination over Canaan.

Instead of understanding Exodus as the story of Hebrews fleeing Egypt, this brings us to understand Exodus as signaling the end of the domination of Egypt on Canaan... in both cases, the Hebrew people were "liberated" from the Egyptian yoke.

In this regards, there are some very interesting parallels between Pentaur’s poem (which celebrates the victory of Ramses II over the Hittites, despite the battle of Kadesh having no decisive winner) and the biblical story of Exodus 14.

Note that the ideas are the same and are presented in the same order. Only the "enemies" and "lord" change (i.e. In Exodus, Israel are the good ones, while in the poem of Pentaur, it is the Egyptians).

Elements common to the Poem of Pentaur and Exodus 14:
1) The of heart of pharaoh hardens; he raises an army to pursue the enemy.
2) Pharaoh positions his troops in the North (Zephon).
3) The enemies fall into the water. Their chariots are reversed. The enemies drown.
4) The enemies are frightened and beg the Lord/Pharaoh to save their lives.
5) The Lord/Pharaoh fights alone against all.
6) In the morning, the enemies were consumed by fire.
7) The survivors beg to be spared.

As such, I believe that the Sea of Reed (rather than the improper "Red Sea" translation) refers to the Orontes river, where the battle of Kadesh took place. Up until very recently, the local roofs were made of the reeds of this river...


Those interested in learning more, can download The Covenant from from my blog
Bernard

-----------
(1) Van De Mieroop, Marc. 2005. King Hammurabi of Babylon: a Biography. Malden: Blackwell, p. 131
(2) Sarton, George. 1993. Ancient Science Through the Golden Age of Greece. Harvard: Harvard University Press. (Orig. pub. 1952-59.). p.118
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27-07-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
(26-07-2016 09:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 05:59 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  1. Is it also your view that there was no expulsion of the Hyksos as stated by Josephus? Certainly if one googles the words, it comes up with lots about the subject including Wiki articles which are generally based on peer-reviewed works. Josephus clearly states that there was an expulsion and that they built Jerusalem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos

No. Josephus had no way of knowing what really happened. He accepted the Biblical narrative of everything. The Hyksos were not the Jews.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...he-hyksos/

Quote:2. If you dispute both Exodus and Josephus, is that because by accepting any validity to them at all, you have to accept there may be a possibility that the identity of the "Jews" is not as it is now thought and that they were, in fact, Armenians?

No. It's because there is no evidence for that.

Quote:There is atheism, and then there is nihilism, where everything ever written is a myth, and I'm not sure I am prepared to accept that all human knowledge about these things is so fundamentally flawed if it isn't written down on paper, that we can't look at any legend or story and try to see if there is something real behind it.

Mythology is not nihilism. Your "presentist" view of mythology is warped. Mythology is how ancient cultures transmitted, what they considered, "truth".

I get to make fun of anyone I like. Tongue
I wanted to teach epithomology ... but God gave me a lithp. Weeping


You say thingth which are not conthithtent.

You say that mythology is how ancient cultures tranmitted what they considered to be the truth. I agree. So one has to look at "myths" as being at least possibly, partly born of a "truth". Then you go on to say that what Jothephus thinks is history, and not myth, isn't true because there is no "evidence" of it. In that ancient cultures passed down myths orally or by other means, then they also passed down "history". So, you take what is handed down as history to Jothephus, in a manner which he recognizes as indicating it is "true" history and not myth, and you hop skip and jump over "myths" to "untruth" because you say that today, we say that there is no evidence of it. Whatever Josephus and his contemporaries considered to be evidence was evidence even if you can't understand that. There is evidence of Sea Peoples invading Egypt as far as I am aware but I'm no expert.

You then say that the OT is a myth, so it is a means of the "Jewish" people conveying truth. There is also, again, a historical view, of Josephus, that these people, the Jews, were the Hyksos, and they left Egypt and built Jerusalem. Again, you say, the ancients could convey "truth" through mythology, but they couldn't convey "historical truth" through "history".

Odd way of looking at things.

Here's the problem.

The NT is aimed at an audience, no matter whether it is wholly, partly true or a myth. It's a message either of the protagonist, Jesus, through intermediaries, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, to an audience or a story/myth directed at an audience. Either way, it is being preached at people who understand the concepts and myths in the story. There is no point, if it is just a mythical pedagogical book, to wrapping Jesus up in the myths of the Romans or Greeks. They were not the audience. It is wrapped up in the myth of Horus, out of Egypt. Whether these people, in Syria, came from Egypt or were already in Syria, where the Hyksos originated, the fact remains the same, that the religion which Jesus says he is "fulfilling" is a religion which has concepts in it such as virgin birth, Joseph and Mary, a trinity, a cross, resurrection after three days.

I accept that this is not Judaism as I know it to be today so when you say these people were not the "Jews", I accept they are not the same people (they are dead) as the people in the NT, in Syria, who are being told by Paul to accept the Jesus story.

Either way, however, you have a religious group in Syria and Judea who understand and relate to the mythology of the Egyptian cult of Horus.

Bucky, Hamlet is the myth of Horus reworked, so is the TV series, "Revenge". Its an age old concept and it goes back to Egypt, and beyond.

You have this notion that the "Jews" of the NT cannot be followers of this cult. Maybe I am mistaken. Maybe the people I am referring to are the "gentiles", the "men" and the "Jews" are an element of that society, who didn't follow the same "religion", as such, or had refined their beliefs but it is inescapable that there is a religion in place in Syria which is Abrahamic and has Horus myths.
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27-07-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
People, including people on this forum, see history as they want to. If the shroud of Turin is an old man, those who are traditionalist Christians, take the 3D image and make it a young man and give him red hair. Jesus has to be in his 30s.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kMCOyFjeycg/hqdefault.jpg

Those who want to be politically correct, make the shroud image younger but Jewish looking, or Jewish as we are told Jewish must look:
https://www.google.com.cy/search?q=shrou...Nn4pcdM%3A
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27-07-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
(26-07-2016 09:22 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  CL, I am not sure I am following your train of thought.

My position is fairly simple, that there was an old civilization which centered in the Near East due to reasons of trade, that people moved about on land and by sea going back to Neolithic times http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/...ope-by-sea Whereas they were illiterate, they used methods which we don't use now to record events, remember them, to navigate, tell time, explain life as they knew it to themselves. In terms of a God, if the Judeo Christian notion of a god was a male figure in whose image man was made and that he lived in the heavens, I look up to the night sky and the big man up there is Orion. The myths surrounding Jesus are those of Horus, who is represented by this star sign, the moon and the sun. That is the largest and most significant "heavenly" configuration there is. This religion spread to the south of England where Stone Henge was built to worship the same god. It is everywhere, like god, sees everything from up there with his "ay", the moon. He drives away the darkness, climbs a hill with a cross behind him, has a phallus (belt) which he created things with.... he even has a dog. This was god. The Jews must have been Horus worshippers. Whether the people of Syria, where Jesus is supposed to have lived, is inhabited by Armenians who migrated to Syria and returned, or never left, my point is that this is the cult or religion to which Jesus, in my mind, is preaching and his message is Hellenistic. Beyond that, CL, I really have little interest in the subject. I was trying to get to some kind of truth but the prevailing attitude here is to try to be "sophisticated" by saying there are all sorts of ideas, interpretations, etc etc, as you seem to be saying, without ever addressing the points I have made. No one has dared even discuss it. I feel I might as well be among Christians at Sunday school and feel afraid to question about the resurrection because the others won't like me. I thought this forum was for free thought about religion, not intolerance of different ideas.

You know, it's really quite simple. You're overthinking the Exodus issue. The area in which the Exodus supposedly took place is about the size of West Virginia, so it's not that big. It's NOT a desert with sand dunes which eat up evidence and moves it all around in the wind, it's a hard rocky desert. The story of Exodus has over a million people wandering around a place the size of West Virginia for 40 years and yet there is not one iota of evidence that this happened. They've found small nomadic tribes that pre-date the Exodus but nothing of Moses and his million people. It's really simple logic. When you open an empty refrigerator looking for a beer 300 times and there's still no beer, you gotta come to the conclusion that there's no beer in the refrigerator.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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27-07-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
(21-07-2016 08:11 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about it recoverable or even relevant to the story of Israel's emergence. - Moore, Megan Bishop; Kelle, Brad E. (2011). Biblical History and Israel's Past. Eerdmans.

The archeological evidence does not support the story told in the Book of Exodus (Meyers, Carol (2005). Exodus. Cambridge University Press) and most archaeologists have therefore abandoned the investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit". - Dever, William (2001). What Did the Biblical Writers Know, and When Did They Know It?. Eerdmans. ISBN 3-927120-37-5.

The apologist/theologian is not a objective historian or archaeologist. The apologist/theologian is a salesperson, who confuses real people and real places being written in holy books as making the book itself historically factual.

Inside and outside religion in human history, legends and myths are sold by peppering in them real people and real places after the fact, to sell the story. It is the same as accepting George Washington existing but knowing the "Cherry Tree" story is a myth.

What matters with ANY religion in human history isn't the real people or real places the apologist likes to claim. What matters is the context of the ignorance of science in antiquity, and our lack of modern knowledge back then.

We can prove the existence of King Tut, but that does not make Ra, Osiris, Horus or Isis real gods.

The Exodus as the bible claims is a legend, a myth. Just like the flood never happened. Just like a baby cannot be born without a second set of DNA.

You can go see REAL cities in the new Independence Day movie too, but that does not make the events in the movie historical fact, much less scientifically viable.

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27-07-2016, 02:34 PM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
M. Chladenius (1710-1759) was first to advance the theory that views of the same object can lead to dissimilar perceptions and stories without compromising the idea of unity of truth.

While I wholeheartedly agree that biblical stories must be contextualized, I also think it there is a tendency by critical thinkers to throw the baby out with the bath water.

For instance, I believe that the diverging views on the stories of Abraham and Exodus held by fundamentalist followers and critical thinkers can be scientifically explained and eventually resolved. We simply need to take the "magic" (i.e. God) out of the picture and fix the the corrupted chronologies...

Did anyone read the interpretation of Exodus that I offered above? Any thoughts?
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27-07-2016, 07:58 PM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
(27-07-2016 12:54 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Bucky, Hamlet is the myth of Horus reworked, so is the TV series, "Revenge". Its an age old concept and it goes back to Egypt, and beyond.

You have this notion that the "Jews" of the NT cannot be followers of this cult. Maybe I am mistaken. Maybe the people I am referring to are the "gentiles", the "men" and the "Jews" are an element of that society, who didn't follow the same "religion", as such, or had refined their beliefs but it is inescapable that there is a religion in place in Syria which is Abrahamic and has Horus myths.

It's not that they "cannot' it's that the evidence is far more overwhelmingly clear that it isn't the case.

It's a lot more telling that if these concepts of the jews for that 2-1 thousand years with various writings and archaeological evidence of their time showcase so little direct connection to the Egyptian Exodus or the recent connection, yet the evidence is overwhelming of their babylonian and canaanite syrian region influence. Again, it's not like these religious ideas were all still unique to Egypt anyway, as you say, it goes beyond that to the proto civilizations, but there are dozens and dozens of godly human figures besides orion and concepts like virgin/god induced birth, dismembered revered son icons, resurrections, powers of threes. Even the far off Balder of the Norse is of the similar status, because yes, the "beyond" is how these have similar proto-indoeuropean and probably even a bit earlier than that origins that spawned shifted but similar myths.

Again, why do you engage in such a black and white line of thinking? Do you really think that's a logical way to get to the better understandings of the reality or to come off as rational in your research?

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27-07-2016, 08:04 PM
RE: The parting of the Red Sea
(27-07-2016 02:34 PM)blambore Wrote:  M. Chladenius (1710-1759) was first to advance the theory that views of the same object can lead to dissimilar perceptions and stories without compromising the idea of unity of truth.

While I wholeheartedly agree that biblical stories must be contextualized, I also think it there is a tendency by critical thinkers to throw the baby out with the bath water.

For instance, I believe that the diverging views on the stories of Abraham and Exodus held by fundamentalist followers and critical thinkers can be scientifically explained and eventually resolved. We simply need to take the "magic" (i.e. God) out of the picture and fix the the corrupted chronologies...

Did anyone read the interpretation of Exodus that I offered above? Any thoughts?

Simcha Jacobovici is a well known kinda film/tv creator who has that as his main kinda approach to understanding the jewish ancestory. It's interesting to take it as an attempt to use archaeology and history in a mixed way of trying to figure out these biblical legends as merely natural scientific explained events.

He basically drums up that the plagues and escaping of egypt by the Jews could be seen as real and caused by a giant volcano known to have gone off in the Mediterranean in a similar time... but it really only works if you screw so many details and shifting the timetables of archaeological evidence hundreds of years. Then add a lot of luck to the scenarios.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus_Decoded I wouldn't recommend watching it unless one was really dedicated to just hearing about these types of claims because it is flimsy historicial claims.

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