"The point, that changes you"
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01-09-2011, 06:54 AM
Question "The point, that changes you"
Hi, i'm new to the Forum and after long searching i couldn't find a better place to ask a important question.

My parents always tell me, when we talk about my atheism, that once in life there will be a special point or happening, kind of wonder, which will show me that there actually is a god.

I'm 17 at the moment and don't have the experience in live to judge about that so i ask you, especially the more experienced poeple, what do you think about that and did you have had any experiences like that jet?

If this isnt the right place for this topic please move it or let me know and i'll repost ist Smile

If there are grammatical or spelling mistakes please let me know, im still learning english Wink

There are only two things which are endless: The universe an human stupidity, although with the human stupidity i'm not sure.

Albert Einstein
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01-09-2011, 07:02 AM
RE: "The point, that changes you"
If your parents are very religious, they may still cling to a hope like that in order for your salvation in the future. I can understand their grief over a "lost child" if belief is very important to them.

I'm turning 40 next year, and the older I get, and the more life experience of all sorts I get, the more convinced I become that there really are no higher power pulling strings (not that I even doubted it at any point). I've had plenty enough of life altering experiences that could have sent me into belief, but no.

"Never underestimate how narrow-minded, petty and stupid people can be". Mark Fulton, forum member
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01-09-2011, 07:13 AM
RE: "The point, that changes you"
My dad is more religious than my mom, he just doesn't ask questions. my mum is more open for my ideas and opinions, but she's also sure that i'm just an atheist because i'm a teenager and i will change my mind when i grow older.

I can't judge about that but i'm very sure that i won't change my mind in the way she wants.

There are only two things which are endless: The universe an human stupidity, although with the human stupidity i'm not sure.

Albert Einstein
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01-09-2011, 07:24 AM
 
RE: "The point, that changes you"
I will give you the same advice I gave to another 17 year old a while ago:

Suppose, for argument's sake, that you grew up in a world where nobody ever talked about gods or supernatural of any kind. Suppose you had an education where they taught you about nature, physics, scientific facts, technology, productive skills, social organization, project management, etc., etc, and no one ever mentioned anything that might even remotely suggest something that was not based on reliable experience and or logic.

No priests, no churches, no bibles, no superstition, no Santa Clauses, no tooth fairies, nothing but observable reality.

Would you have ever thought of anything outside this?

If your answer is "probably not", then you are a victim of brainwashing.

As far as the "point that changes you" is concerned, every change needs some kind of trigger. I have never seen, heard of or encountered any trigger that was not based on, or connected to, some kind of received wisdom from our religious society. And I have been around a very long time.
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01-09-2011, 07:52 AM
RE: "The point, that changes you"
What puts me off religion is the fact that throughout history we have had different gods......wars have been fought over them, laws were made in there name, people were executed over them etc etc (sound familiar to today?).......except not one single person now worships these entitys.......so that leaves the question of WTF!!!!

Thats not to say that all religious stuff is bad......there are certain aspects were actual good comes out of it. The bad side is it can limit your beliefs.......and if people wish to become wise/enlightened then to truely consider a subject I think you must also consider ALL sides of something simultaneously to see the whole picture......and that can only come through years of life and experience with a willingness to learn and not to judge (which is so easy)

Through my experiences though I will say that all of the important answers in life lie within you........not within some text or law/rule. If you are going to put your faith into something then put it within yourself and nothing else.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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01-09-2011, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2011 08:22 AM by Sines.)
RE: "The point, that changes you"
I suggest you point out the high number of scientists that are atheists. These are grown men and women who are certainly not rebellious teenagers, and whose job description can be summed up as, "Figure shit out." Not to mention, the biggest way to achieve fame and notoriety (Not to mention precious, precious grant money) is to prove all other scientists wrong, and that this can, and has, happened many times in the past (Einstein destroying Newton is the most noteworthy, but more apropos might be Darwin convincing the very, at the time, christian academia that Evolution was true).

Obviously, intelligent persons who do not take the issue of "Does this exist" lightly agree with you. Maybe you are just being rebellious, but it's hardly the only possibility.

Oh, by the way. No, that point has never happened. The closest I can think of is that, every now and then, when I start to think "How can this all have come about by accident." But then, all I need to do is remember that to invoke a designer only magnifies the problem, and I'm all the more certain that it DID come about by 'accident'.
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01-09-2011, 08:24 AM
RE: "The point, that changes you"
There are moments in life that can change your perception, your attitude, your perspective. Only, they don't necessarily turn out the same way.

These can be moments of great fear, when you see no way out, and there is nothing to lose by appealing to a god you don't believe in. Then, if you are rescued from the cave, it may seem that your prayer has been answered and you'd better keep whatever rash promise you made. If, on the other hand, nobody comes and you have to cut off your own arm to get out, that would tend to cement your disbelief.
The odds of which will happen depend on a whole lot of earthly factors.

Or moments of great joy, like the birth of your child, which is as healthy and perfect as you had hoped.... whereupon you thank 1. God 2. your excellent genetic heritage 3. the midwife / medical science or 4. Nature, for perfecting a reliable and fun means of reproduction.

Moments of awe, when you realize just how big the universe is, how beautiful Earth is, how amazing human faculties are, how marvelous that you can love somebody who loves you back. That can go either way, too.

The only moment guaranteed to push you toward the biblical god is when you realize that you're Abraham - not Isaac. That's what the old people mean by understanding when you're older - when you stop being the child (a property they can sacrifice, abuse, browbeat, gain or lose at their god's pleasure, without the kid even being consulted) and become the patriarch (with all the privileges).
Of course, if you're a girl, none of this applies: you can only ever be chattel and/or vessel.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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01-09-2011, 08:48 AM
RE: "The point, that changes you"
Wow, thanks for the great Opinions, Suggestions and Experiences, i appreciate that.
I have great stuff to think about now Smile

BTW: Peterkin, I'm male Wink

There are only two things which are endless: The universe an human stupidity, although with the human stupidity i'm not sure.

Albert Einstein
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01-09-2011, 09:11 AM
RE: "The point, that changes you"
In that case, you will appreciate the one i forgot to mention: sex.
I'm always amused when Hallelujah http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/leonardco...lujah.html is played on solemn occasions. I don't think the organizers have listened very closely.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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