The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
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12-03-2014, 12:27 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2014 12:34 AM by john2.)
The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
Sorry if I'm starting too many threads. For the christians on here most of you say it comes down to a matter of faith. On the one hand this is true to a degree. For example do you trust your senses? How do you know for sure you're not hooked to up to a brain machine like in the matrix. The problem is that you're not recognizing the difference between blind faith and reasoned faith. For example if you going to work and your car won't start do you sit and pray hoping it will work or do you get out and look under the hood - maybe even ask for a ride? Try telling your boss you kept praying but god wouldn't fix your car - see what he says. If you see a cliff do you have faith god will save you and walk over the edge or do you avoid it? And here's this little gem in the bible:

Quote:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mark chapter 16 verses 17 to 19

Last time I checked most of you christians weren't drinking deadly poison. Well don't you have faith? Well what I suspect you have or at least hope you do is commonsense- you're not going to walk off a cliff or drink poison because you know will probably die. What atheism is or at least the way I see it is simply using your commonsense. The bible talks about all sorts of miracles and angels and what not appearing - I have never seen any of these things and I suspect you have not either. Atheism is the default position for not knowing- I cannot believe in something I know nothing about. Whether or not some kind of god actually exists one might not ever know but as far as christianity it is clear it was made by people - especially when you consider the early christians voted on what books would be in the bible and what wouldn't be.
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12-03-2014, 12:50 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
Why would I drink poison?
To put God to the proof?
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12-03-2014, 12:51 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
Lion lets debate.
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12-03-2014, 12:55 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
What and why?
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12-03-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
Your beliefs. Because I am tired of theists running away from debates.
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12-03-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
I'm a pretty recent non-fundy, but I'm going to be answering this from the fundamentalist perspective. Keep in mind that there is some variance within fundamental circles. Note: I might play devil's advocate here (haha, and that strikes me as funny, all things considered)

Your questions will be in red. Answers in blue.

For the christians on here most of you say it comes down to a matter of faith. On the one hand this is true to a degree. For example do you trust your senses?
I generally trust my senses, but not my heart. The bible says that the person who trusts his heart is a fool, and that the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?


How do you know for sure you're not hooked to up to a brain machine like in the matrix.
I don't even know how to begin to answer this... except, I guess in a way, we ARE in a matrix in ONE SENSE. After all, we're here for a specific purpose, and everything we do, say and think is seen and archived. There are spiritual battles happening behind the scenes that we're largely unaware of. So I guess... we're in a KIND of matrix, if you want to think of it that way. I personally doubt the existence of a brain machine, but I have no way to actually prove that.

The problem is that you're not recognizing the difference between blind faith and reasoned faith.
Actually, I (and Jesus) would consider blind faith foolish. There must be reason behind it or else the faith is both blind and arbitrary. Even Jesus says that you calculate the cost of doing something before rushing into it, and the Bereans did pretty in-depth study before believing what Paul was saying. Our faith in God isn't regarding what happened in the past... the past is documented and needs no faith. Our faith is that what Jesus did is actually enough to do what he said it would do, which is to pay the price for stuff we've done. Basically, we committed the crimes, and we're putting our faith in Jesus that he's going to come through and pay our fines.

For example if you going to work and your car won't start do you sit and pray hoping it will work or do you get out and look under the hood - maybe even ask for a ride? Try telling your boss you kept praying but god wouldn't fix your car - see what he says.
Some would. I've seen it happen, unfortunately. But that's not really the example we're given in scripture for stuff like this, though there are many instances where prayer was used. We're not supposed to pray to the exclusion of all other action where action is an available option. For instance, Paul was briefly bitten by a snake. Instead of dropping down and praying with this snake on his arm, he acted quickly and through it into the campfire. And no, would not expect that to fly with the boss.

If you see a cliff do you have faith god will save you and walk over the edge or do you avoid it?
I would avoid it, because we're not supposed to deliberately test God. People don't like their hands being forced, and neither does God. There's very little chance that He's going to reward my presumption with a miracle.
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12-03-2014, 01:02 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 12:50 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Why would I drink poison?
To put God to the proof?

The bible says it is a sign of your belief. Well what are you waiting for?
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12-03-2014, 01:03 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
Lion are we gonna debate or you run away?
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12-03-2014, 01:13 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 01:03 AM)donotwant Wrote:  Lion are we gonna debate or you run away?

Maybe Lion drank the poison?
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12-03-2014, 02:50 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 01:02 AM)john2 Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 12:50 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Why would I drink poison?
To put God to the proof?

The bible says it is a sign of your belief. Well what are you waiting for?

The bible doesn't encourage you to drink poison.
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