The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
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12-03-2014, 03:28 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 03:24 AM)Charis Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 03:18 AM)john2 Wrote:  But again I ask the question if someone really believes in the bible why the doubt? And if you yourself are having doubts (don't take this personally Charis) then how you can set us atheists straight?

No offense taken, no worries. Smile

I cannot personally think of setting anyone straight right now, because I am at a crossroads at the moment and don't know which way I'll be going. The only thing I can do is possibly let you know what a christian answer might be to a given question and why, because I have been in it for so long. As far as setting straight? Shoot... I've gotta set myself straight first.

I should have rewritten my post. I meant to direct the question to christians in general not you personally.
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12-03-2014, 03:29 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 03:21 AM)john2 Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 03:13 AM)Charis Wrote:  I'll try to answer that.
If God is real and is what the bible says, then he is perfectly capable of doing all these things (healings, keeping me safe from snakes and poison). With the emphasis on faith, I would personally doubt that I would have faith strong enough for him to have any interest in doing this stuff through me, if that's how it's supposed to work (especially considering my current... well... state). There's also the doctrine of dispensationalism to think about, which would say that God interacts and deals with mankind in different ways at different points in history. One very popular conclusion in regard to this is that miracles and their necessity largely ceased after the resurrection, and the responsibility for spreading the word about Jesus now fell mostly to his believers by word of mouth, and that now God communicates his will primarily through what has already been recorded in the Bible (with the occasional isolated miracle, but this being the rare exception and not the rule).

Btw I missed the tail end of your post about miracles of stopping after the resurrection- the verses in Mark are after the resurrection. Don't you find it interesting how the biblical people believed because they saw miracles? They apparently weren't taking things on faith. Why the double standard for us?

I'm reminded of when Jesus said (after the resurrection) that yes, the ones who saw it were blessed, but the ones who believe without seeing it are blessed even more. It takes far more faith to believe something that you have no evidence for and have only heard of via word of mouth. If they were seeing miracles and stuff, it required a whoooole lot less faith. Basically, the only thing they would really need faith for would be trusting that Jesus would really follow through after death.

Dunno.
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12-03-2014, 03:32 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
John2 I have seen people getting healed and speaking i tongues. I am new to the forum and glad to see all the debates interesting Smile
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12-03-2014, 03:51 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 03:32 AM)dechen choden Wrote:  John2 I have seen people getting healed and speaking i tongues. I am new to the forum and glad to see all the debates interesting Smile

Proof? Care to drink poison or show us a believer doing these things?
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12-03-2014, 05:58 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 12:56 AM)Charis Wrote:  I'm a pretty recent non-fundy, but I'm going to be answering this from the fundamentalist perspective. Keep in mind that there is some variance within fundamental circles. Note: I might play devil's advocate here (haha, and that strikes me as funny, all things considered)

Your questions will be in red. Answers in blue.

For the christians on here most of you say it comes down to a matter of faith. On the one hand this is true to a degree. For example do you trust your senses?
I generally trust my senses, but not my heart. The bible says that the person who trusts his heart is a fool, and that the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?


How do you know for sure you're not hooked to up to a brain machine like in the matrix.
I don't even know how to begin to answer this... except, I guess in a way, we ARE in a matrix in ONE SENSE. After all, we're here for a specific purpose, and everything we do, say and think is seen and archived. There are spiritual battles happening behind the scenes that we're largely unaware of. So I guess... we're in a KIND of matrix, if you want to think of it that way. I personally doubt the existence of a brain machine, but I have no way to actually prove that.

The problem is that you're not recognizing the difference between blind faith and reasoned faith.
Actually, I (and Jesus) would consider blind faith foolish. There must be reason behind it or else the faith is both blind and arbitrary. Even Jesus says that you calculate the cost of doing something before rushing into it, and the Bereans did pretty in-depth study before believing what Paul was saying. Our faith in God isn't regarding what happened in the past... the past is documented and needs no faith. Our faith is that what Jesus did is actually enough to do what he said it would do, which is to pay the price for stuff we've done. Basically, we committed the crimes, and we're putting our faith in Jesus that he's going to come through and pay our fines.

For example if you going to work and your car won't start do you sit and pray hoping it will work or do you get out and look under the hood - maybe even ask for a ride? Try telling your boss you kept praying but god wouldn't fix your car - see what he says.
Some would. I've seen it happen, unfortunately. But that's not really the example we're given in scripture for stuff like this, though there are many instances where prayer was used. We're not supposed to pray to the exclusion of all other action where action is an available option. For instance, Paul was briefly bitten by a snake. Instead of dropping down and praying with this snake on his arm, he acted quickly and through it into the campfire. And no, would not expect that to fly with the boss.

If you see a cliff do you have faith god will save you and walk over the edge or do you avoid it?
I would avoid it, because we're not supposed to deliberately test God. People don't like their hands being forced, and neither does God. There's very little chance that He's going to reward my presumption with a miracle.



Just substitute the word *Magic* in most of your responses. Reads and means about the same thing.
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12-03-2014, 06:14 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 02:50 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  The bible doesn't encourage you to drink poison.
Liar!


Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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12-03-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 12:27 AM)john2 Wrote:  Sorry if I'm starting too many threads. For the christians on here most of you say it comes down to a matter of faith. On the one hand this is true to a degree. For example do you trust your senses? How do you know for sure you're not hooked to up to a brain machine like in the matrix. The problem is that you're not recognizing the difference between blind faith and reasoned faith. For example if you going to work and your car won't start do you sit and pray hoping it will work or do you get out and look under the hood - maybe even ask for a ride? Try telling your boss you kept praying but god wouldn't fix your car - see what he says. If you see a cliff do you have faith god will save you and walk over the edge or do you avoid it? And here's this little gem in the bible:

Quote:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mark chapter 16 verses 17 to 19

Last time I checked most of you christians weren't drinking deadly poison. Well don't you have faith? Well what I suspect you have or at least hope you do is commonsense- you're not going to walk off a cliff or drink poison because you know will probably die. What atheism is or at least the way I see it is simply using your commonsense. The bible talks about all sorts of miracles and angels and what not appearing - I have never seen any of these things and I suspect you have not either. Atheism is the default position for not knowing- I cannot believe in something I know nothing about. Whether or not some kind of god actually exists one might not ever know but as far as christianity it is clear it was made by people - especially when you consider the early christians voted on what books would be in the bible and what wouldn't be.

There is no such thing as reasoned faith and there is no need to put a qualifier like blind in front of faith. Faith is belief without reason. All faith is blind. If a belief is reasoned then it doesn't require faith. Using the word faith in place of belief, hope or trust gives cover to theists to equivocate.

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12-03-2014, 09:33 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
(12-03-2014 09:00 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(12-03-2014 12:27 AM)john2 Wrote:  Sorry if I'm starting too many threads. For the christians on here most of you say it comes down to a matter of faith. On the one hand this is true to a degree. For example do you trust your senses? How do you know for sure you're not hooked to up to a brain machine like in the matrix. The problem is that you're not recognizing the difference between blind faith and reasoned faith. For example if you going to work and your car won't start do you sit and pray hoping it will work or do you get out and look under the hood - maybe even ask for a ride? Try telling your boss you kept praying but god wouldn't fix your car - see what he says. If you see a cliff do you have faith god will save you and walk over the edge or do you avoid it? And here's this little gem in the bible:

Mark chapter 16 verses 17 to 19

Last time I checked most of you christians weren't drinking deadly poison. Well don't you have faith? Well what I suspect you have or at least hope you do is commonsense- you're not going to walk off a cliff or drink poison because you know will probably die. What atheism is or at least the way I see it is simply using your commonsense. The bible talks about all sorts of miracles and angels and what not appearing - I have never seen any of these things and I suspect you have not either. Atheism is the default position for not knowing- I cannot believe in something I know nothing about. Whether or not some kind of god actually exists one might not ever know but as far as christianity it is clear it was made by people - especially when you consider the early christians voted on what books would be in the bible and what wouldn't be.

There is no such thing as reasoned faith and there is no need to put a qualifier like blind in front of faith. Faith is belief without reason. All faith is blind. If a belief is reasoned then it doesn't require faith. Using the word faith in place of belief, hope or trust gives cover to theists to equivocate.

Well I was using "faith" in the sense that on some level you have to simply trust things - for example how do you know your senses are right? But commonsense is based on experience/information as opposed to blind faith without evidence. My point was that most christians are reasonable people in everyday life. For example I was watching a medical show with my mother one day where a family was fighting a doctor in the emergency room and wouldn't let their dad get an operation. My mother told me if she was in the same situation to make sure she got the operation. Now I'm not trying to demean my mother but she didn't say "I believe in jesus so much I know he will save me so don't do anything" no because she knew that when the chips are down doctors/science is what would save her. This is the way most christians are even how most theists are they just refuse to extend their commonsense - that they rely on everyday and hopefully would use in a life threatening situation, to their religion.
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12-03-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: The problem of faith- an appeal to christians.
In terms of faith the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "Faith is an act of reason assenting to the divine truth, by command of the will, moved by God through grace". As you can see in Catholic theology, faith is considered to be an act of the intellect. This is why there was the entire scholastic movement. (People say that church teaching is stuck in the dark ages but really its stuck in the medieval ages.) This is why the church has had people like Peter Abelard who thought that you didn't even need revelation (The Bible plus capital T Tradition) to understand God and one could find nearly all the precepts of the church through natural philosophy. He was technically accused of heresy for this but he did reconcile and say that revelation was in fact necessary. However, we still believe that we can come to understand and know God simply on reason. Certain things such as the trinity and real presence will have to be taken on faith but many other things can be known purely through reason.

One problem with the word faith is that the definition was was changed by Martin Luther. He believed that faith was an act of the will and so we just believe because we tell ourselves to believe. He thought that trying to apply reason was in fact evil as you are trying to conform God to your mind. So he really put forward the concept of blind faith.

Also I would disagree with you that miracles and visions only happened in the past. I have never experienced one but my housemate saw a Marion apparition in Medjugoria and his grandfathers rosary was turned to gold. As well my teacher's father experienced Padre Pio's mind reading skill (Although that might not necessarily have been a miracle but just a neat trick).

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