The problem with american's prison systems
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24-04-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 02:02 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 01:56 PM)BnW Wrote:  I never said we should make drugs illegal. I just pointed out it's not true they don't kill people. They do.

Fair enough. So we're in agreement in that we both prefer that drugs be legal for adults?

I think it's a little more complicated than that, to be honest.

First, your comparison of drugs to hamburgers and other activities that can kill you is really spurious. Aside from the difference in sheer numbers (the millions of people who eat badly vs. the relatively small number of drug addicts), they are not comparable things. And, the issue is not just death.

People addicted to drugs are generally prone to anti-social and often criminal behavior that any society has a legitimate interest in stamping out. And, that's before you get into the societal costs, both macro and micro. It costs us real money when we have a percentage of society that can't take care of itself and is rattled with addiction issues, and it costs families a whole lot that can't easily be quantified. So, I think taking a simple laissez faire attitude towards drugs is a big mistake.

I do, however, agree that a blanket policy of criminalizing addiction isn't working either and it's time to rethink the whole approach. But, there is a lot of territory between what we are doing now and just and blanket legalization.

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24-04-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
"Fourteen years after decriminalization, Portugal has not been run into the ground by a nation of drug addicts. In fact, by many measures, it's doing far better than it was before."

http://mic.com/articles/110344/14-years-....vlTHVGPRz

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24-04-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
I'm curious if you read that whole article. Further down, it says the following:

But some social scientists have cautioned against attributing all the numbers to decriminalization itself, as there are other factors at play in the national decrease in overdoses, disease and usage.

At the turn of the millennium, Portugal shifted drug control from the Justice Department to the Ministry of Health and instituted a robust public health model for treating hard drug addiction. It also expanded the welfare system in the form of a guaranteed minimum income. Changes in the material and health resources for at-risk populations for the past decade are a major factor in evaluating the evolution of Portugal's drug situation.


I'm ok with an approach similar to what Portugal did. But, they did more than just decriminalize drugs, which is what you've been at least implying. They took additional steps and invested in preventing a growing problem. I think it's a very tough sell for that type of policy in the US for a variety of reasons. And, the more likely outcome in this country is we decriminalize, don't invest into the other side of the equation, and have a seriously fucked up result. It doesn't have to end up that way, but I think that is a more likely outcome than Portugal's experience. I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong, though.

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24-04-2016, 04:25 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 02:59 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  SYZ,

Just curious, would you prefer that alcohol be illegal?

I do think that in Australia we need to further curtail the availability of alcohol to young people, and also introduce shorter trading hours for licensed clubs and pubs, along with specific "lockout" times. At the moment we're seeing a massive increase in alcohol-related crimes of violence, and people driving under the influence. One in three road deaths in Australia is alcohol-related.

The total costs to society of alcohol-related problems in 2010 was estimated to be $14.350 billion. So yes; we do need to do something to lessen the societal impact of alcohol misuse.

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24-04-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 03:14 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 03:04 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  Yes, people do die from eating unhealthy food, that is an undeniable, tremendous epidemic in America. Yet companies are still allowed to exist, like McDonalds and Pepsi. Honestly, I feel like banning these companies would be fine because there probably wouldn't be a criminal underground of people trying to sell you processed garbage if they got banned. It's simply too big of an economic powerhouse to get cut at this point though. I think that we should try to regulate what McDonalds puts in their food, but sadly I don't think we can destroy McDonalds, Coke, Pepsi, etc.

This sounds like insanity to me. Do you want to ban cake and ice cream too? I'm totally behind forcing companies to properly and accurately label what's in their food, but I don't think we need to ban much of anything. Educate people, and then let them decide for themselves. I know that eating bacon will shorten my life (so will drinking beer), but I enjoy life more eating it (and drinking beer), so I'm willing to trade off.

Do you want to ban fast cars too?
People don't take their kids out to get cake and icecream for dinner as much as they do mcdonalds. Honestly, I'm not saying it's pragmatic to do this, but in an ideal world, McDonalds would be fucking decimated.
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24-04-2016, 07:52 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2016 08:00 PM by Matt Finney.)
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 03:50 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'm ok with an approach similar to what Portugal did.

If you're ok with drug decriminalization then we really don't have much to argue about. Cool
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24-04-2016, 07:53 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 04:25 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 02:59 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  SYZ,

Just curious, would you prefer that alcohol be illegal?

I do think that in Australia we need to further curtail the availability of alcohol to young people, and also introduce shorter trading hours for licensed clubs and pubs, along with specific "lockout" times. At the moment we're seeing a massive increase in alcohol-related crimes of violence, and people driving under the influence. One in three road deaths in Australia is alcohol-related.

The total costs to society of alcohol-related problems in 2010 was estimated to be $14.350 billion. So yes; we do need to do something to lessen the societal impact of alcohol misuse.

You failed to answer the question.

Is it your preference that alcohol be legal, or illegal, for adults?
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24-04-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 04:31 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 03:14 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  This sounds like insanity to me. Do you want to ban cake and ice cream too? I'm totally behind forcing companies to properly and accurately label what's in their food, but I don't think we need to ban much of anything. Educate people, and then let them decide for themselves. I know that eating bacon will shorten my life (so will drinking beer), but I enjoy life more eating it (and drinking beer), so I'm willing to trade off.

Do you want to ban fast cars too?
People don't take their kids out to get cake and icecream for dinner as much as they do mcdonalds. Honestly, I'm not saying it's pragmatic to do this, but in an ideal world, McDonalds would be fucking decimated.

You sound nutty to me. Would you really want to ban McDonald's? What about Wendy's and Arbys?

Why not ban Dairy Queen?
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24-04-2016, 08:02 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 11:48 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  End the drug war?

Why?

So even more people will get addicted to meth and neglect, abuse, or kill their own kids? So even more people can become junkies and become full blown losers? So even more people can walk around picking scabs on their face, robbing people to buy more drugs?

No. Give anyone caught with drugs life in prison after the 3rd offense. I'm fine with marijuana but fuck the rest of them.

"The war on drugs" is a propaganda/media ploy. You can read the history here.

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24-04-2016, 08:03 PM
RE: The problem with american's prison systems
(24-04-2016 07:57 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 04:31 PM)Mittens Deluxe Wrote:  People don't take their kids out to get cake and icecream for dinner as much as they do mcdonalds. Honestly, I'm not saying it's pragmatic to do this, but in an ideal world, McDonalds would be fucking decimated.

You sound nutty to me. Would you really want to ban McDonald's? What about Wendy's and Arbys?

Why not ban Dairy Queen?
I wish that people only ate whole foods to be honest. This processed crap is bad for you.
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