The problem with fundamentalism...
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24-04-2017, 03:32 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2017 07:56 PM by Cosmo.)
The problem with fundamentalism...
Now... before I start typing the rest of this out I first of all actually guess I should say hello since I'm brand new. Lol I literally just thought about doing that right now. I'm Cosmo! Great to meet all of you! Smile

I'm a freshly converted agnostic in that I have absolutely no idea what's going on behind the potentially non-existent curtain. I've only been this way since March 2016. I feel like I'm pretty new to this. My parents still don't know, and I know it would crush them if they found out, because then they would think I'm off to 'hell.'

What an absolute crock of hilariously contemptible cow sputum that is.

Anyways.

There are limits to the capacities of what we can know, and this is where humanity finds room for whatever Higher Power brings them the most mental comfort. For the most part this doesn't have to be such a harmful thing. People believe in whatever they want to and go about their lives in a relatively harmless manner.

That's fine.

For the most part this has allowed me the joy of carrying out my atheism quietly. I live in Canada, surrounded by an entirely Christian family. I've stopped going to church, so they know something's up, but they just think that my relationship with God is in a bad place or something, and they'll silently infer every once in a while that I should come to their church. I politely decline, close my eyes at prayer time, say amen when it's over, keep them semi convinced, and the world spins onward. Religion doesn't have any effect on my day to day life except for when people try to convert me to their respective religious ways of thinking. And I can deal with all of it.

Up until recently that is. When my family starts talking about Christianity, often they talk about it from an oppressed perspective. Like the world is attacking them and their way of living.

In a way, we are attacking their religion. Ideas can be hostile to other ideas, usually when only one of them is true, and thought crime has existed for a long time. Most notably when religion is intermingled into the already sad cacophony of nonsense that is politics....

... ... perhaps you can see where I'm going with this.

Now, science doesn't make any direct statements against the truth of Christianity, it only makes claims of evidence. Scientists ask for it when a claim is made, or present evidence when making a claim themselves. So Christians feel attacked because the facts are messing with their mental comfort. No record of Jesus in Rome, no Roman census at that time, basic contradictions all over the place in the 'Holy' book, trees that are 3000 years older than how old YECers think the earth itself is, your penis doesn't explode and God doesn't smite you if you're gay and hell is a Norse Pagan concept that was subsequently translated over into the Christian religion by Christianity as a means of both assimilating Norse believers and because it was a fantastic method of control.

I don't make the rules people. This is science. I'm not trying to destroy the case for your faith, you have no case for your faith and are painfully unaware. All I have to do is point out what actually happened in history and what actually occurs physically. It's interesting how just basic scientific principles and historical facts seem to be direct attacks on faith. I was just trying to understand biology. If that's invalidating your faith, consider that your faith is in need of invalidating.

So what is particularly jarring is when my family, who lives with me in Canada, rejoices at the prospect of political policies being influenced by the Christian religion. Teaching Noah's Ark and YEC, alongside Evolution and Geology, as equally viable and diametrically opposed views, in the same classroom for instance; making aborting a fetus illegal in certain States; being passive or even outright denying climate change; saying that spaceflight and figuring out the Universe and how it works is of no importance or that we shouldn't spend money on it (do you have an iPhone? #ThankaPhysicist.)

Hearing all of this is absolutely disturbing to me. I feel like I've been hearing it more and more, and I feel like I'm consequentially getting more vocal about what I think.

Science should influence policy. Policy should not influence science. Science is true, regardless of what someone thinks about it. The planet is round, regardless of whether or not you think it's round. I doubt a flat-earth Christian would dare tread any water around here but if you do.

Bro... don't even.

I dunno... I'm just beginning to get the sense that we have a real problem here. People are literally believing nonsense and quackery, and then carrying it well into their adult lives. Some of them become politicians and influence policy that allows for the perpetuation of ignorance. I feel like this could really, really stifle progress at a time when we need to do something. We have some serious technology we need to think up, which means we need lots of Scientists, Engineers and Master Tradesmen, that will likely already need a deep and thorough understanding of extremely complicated physical phenomena before they can even begin to tackle what the actual mammoth problem facing them is.

And, we'll need politicians that aren't a bunch of incompetent, anti-science liars.

What compounds this ridiculousness is that we already have a fair bit of understanding in regards to how the Universe works, that is being outright denied. Scientists literally had to have a march for teaching facts a few days ago.

Normally I'm not the type to want to offend faiths, but lately, I kinda almost feel like just crushing them in the name of Science. I ruined my one buddy's faith when he wouldn't stop pressing me as to why I didn't believe anymore.

I had a list of some 1200 reasons at the time. I see it's grown.

http://www.kyroot.com

Anyways... I know that's rude. I felt terrible after it happened. But we used to record music together and he seriously wouldn't leave me alone about it. Now we don't talk anymore. I know it would ruin my dad if he stopped believing in God. Same with my mom. But I still feel like doing it. I know that once I do it the beast is unleashed. I won't be quiet anymore at all. It's all just total, total nonsense, and now it's getting dangerous.

So I guess I just have a couple of questions.

How would you tell your family you don't believe anymore without necessarily trying to destroy their faith? Should I destroy their faith? Is religion the last bastion against scientific progress that needs to go away, or can science and religion really, peacefully, coexist? Do you see there being any religious trains of thought within the next, say, 100 years? Will they go away naturally or is it something that needs to be enacted? (EDIT: Paleophyte pointed out inadvertently that I should clarify this: I am in no way referring to the limiting of free-speech, but to the unabashed, borderline rude dismantling of their religion, just using pure reason, and free-speech. Do you think it will go away naturally, by people realizing it's stupid, or will we have to tell them, I guess is the question?)

I'm beginning to have my doubts.

Anyways my regards! I hope I laid that thought out uniformly.
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24-04-2017, 03:43 PM
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
Lots of good stuff in that Kyroot link. I think I will share some stuff with them (you ? ).

If someone asks me about what I believe, I just say, "Oh, not now, please". It's really no one's business, unless YOU WANT to share the information.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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24-04-2017, 03:50 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2017 08:45 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
No not me but yeah it is fantastic it converted me over to the light side. I was an egghead Christian too I had a lot of answers to some pretty tough questions (I used to debate a lot) and there are some in there that I just couldn't answer. I love science too much to be cognitively dissonant when the evidence against your religion is so blatantly in your face so I walked. I felt lied to, cheated, brainwashed and ill-equipped for a life without some FSM to chat with after that. Whenever I had come across some scientific invalidation of Christianity I would always conform my worldview so that God stayed palatable. Couldn't do it anymore. It was torn to shreds. But yeah that link alone could successfully make all but the most close-minded of Christians walk away.

There's only so many things we can 'take out of context.'

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
[Image: stairway_to_heaven_by_tomtr.png]
~ 0 ~
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24-04-2017, 03:51 PM
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
And yeah again up until now I've stayed pretty quiet about my feelings towards religion but I'm beginning to seriously wonder if it is appropriate to continue letting people walk along in dangerous falsehood.
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24-04-2017, 04:27 PM
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
You're not responsible for the shock and dismay that a believer feels, when they come to the realization that they've been worshipping the 2nd centuries version of Superman.


They bought into the nonsense voluntarily....


It's on them.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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24-04-2017, 04:36 PM
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
That's true.

Being the one to do it sucks if it comes down to it though. Doing it to strangers is one thing, but to your family?

My dad thinks Ken Ham is smart though...

... forreals... ... I'm not kidding.
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24-04-2017, 04:55 PM
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
Many years ago, when I took a geology 102 - Historical Geology course, the first lecture was a thorough debunking on Bible fundamentalism as regards science. The world is not 6000 years old as per Bishop Ussher. Genesis is full of scientific howlers. Genesis and the flood are mythology, science studies evidence and follows evidence and there is no reconciling science and modern geology and the Bible. I assume that many Historical Geology classes more or less start with these basics, geology is based on solid evidence and logic.

At this time, I was very aware of all of that so it was no shock to me. But yes, it was made clear, geology does not support the Bible, not fundamentalism, not literalism.

I suspect that some sort of debunking along this line, more or less is still standard in Historical Geology classes in many universities. Which may be a shock to many. Does science attack the Bible? In my experience here, yes.

The whole point of this was to get this out of the way day one and pound home the main point, Historical Geology is about evidence.

Interestingly enough, this was at a time in which the dam finally burst, and plate tectonics swept away isostatic theory. Geology changed radically due to overwhelming evidence for Wegner's plate techtonic theory.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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24-04-2017, 04:57 PM
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
I like that kyroot.com sight. Thanks. I'll bookmark it. Welcome to the forum.

I don't have any advice on your family situation. I was raised a freethinker so I have never experienced anything like what you're going through. Maybe others will chime in. Lots of former believers here.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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24-04-2017, 05:10 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2017 06:04 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
Quote:Many years ago, when I took a geology 102 - Historical Geology course, the first lecture was a thorough debunking on Bible fundamentalism as regards science. The world is not 6000 years old as per Bishop Ussher. Genesis is full of scientific howlers. Genesis and the flood are mythology, science studies evidence and follows evidence and there is no reconciling science and modern geology and the Bible. I assume that many Historical Geology classes more or less start with these basics, geology is based on solid evidence and logic.

At this time, I was very aware of all of that so it was no shock to me. But yes, it was made clear, geology does not support the Bible, not fundamentalism, not literalism.

I suspect that some sort of debunking along this line, more or less is still standard in Historical Geology classes in many universities. Which may be a shock to many. Does science attack the Bible? In my experience here, yes.

The whole point of this was to get this out of the way day one and pound home the main point, Historical Geology is about evidence.

Interestingly enough, this was at a time in which the dam finally burst, and plate tectonics swept away isostatic theory. Geology changed radically due to overwhelming evidence for Wegner's plate techtonic theory.

Yeah I was a very small child the last time I took the bible word for word. Whenever I would com to a scientific understanding of something, I would just conform my belief to the evidence while maintaining a belief in God: 'That must have been metaphorical. Well then that clearly is just a story!' etc. So by the time I hit Uni I had no qualms with any of the science. Finding out how we all originated from Africa and how they think we spread out around the globe was awesome.

Yeah see and my parents literally don't believe in radiometric dating. How can you use evidence in a situation like that?

Thinking about that I wonder what that would look like. Suppose the public school curriculum does adopt this 'teach YEC as a plausible alternative' mentality. What would that look like for post-secondary?
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24-04-2017, 05:13 PM
RE: The problem with fundamentalism...
Quote:I like that kyroot.com sight. Thanks. I'll bookmark it. Welcome to the forum.

I don't have any advice on your family situation. I was raised a freethinker so I have never experienced anything like what you're going through. Maybe others will chime in. Lots of former believers here.

Oh no that's fine. That's very lucky of you lol. Yeah it's a great website I couldn't stop letting it dismantle my faith; read it in a few weeks.

Thanks for saying hi! Smile
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