The problem with the economy, IMO.
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11-01-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
Quote:Simply stop charging interest.

LOL!!! ROFL!!! ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS!!!??

Fucking hell, I dunno if it's worth replying to that level of stupidity.
I really should just respond with "you are seriously ignorant as to how the economy/world works", but it's you Bemore so I wont.
Instead I will bother to school you. Your welcome.

Quote:I know people will say "well what would be the point in lending money then" because they couldnt profit off it.

Yes, they will say that because they are 100% correct.
There is absolutely zero reason for something like a bank to lend money or really anyone for that matter if they are not going to see compensation for the risk they take in lending money out.

That is what interest is, risk compensation. The bank could invest its (yours, when you put your money in the bank) money in much much safer options, for example government bonds.
This is why you pay the interest you do on things like mortgages. Mortgages hold a certain level of risk that is higher then the risk of the bank investing in government bonds. It's not much more riskier, but it's still riskier. And so the interest rate reflects this.
If say the bank wont lend to you and you go to a finance company that will, you are deemed as risky and so the chances of you defaulting on your payments and not paying back the loan are much greater and so the interest rate is higher to reflect this.

You have to ask yourself Bemore, if you had $1,000 and you were presented with two options.
Option A gave a return of $100 but there was a 20% chance that you will lose all your money.
Option B also gave a return of $100 but there was a 50% chance you would lose all your money.
Which option would you pick?

But given the same situation except Option B gave a return of $500, then you have an actual valid choice to make of how to invest your money. High risk, high return or low risk, low return.

It's basic shit I'm saying here.


Quote:If that system is to continue then they need to they need much higher
percentages of money to hold back in reserve. Like 90% or something, so
if they do fail and go bust then they can at least pay everybody back
some of their money and be allowed to fail.


People have this illusion that banks are 100% safe.
When you put your money in a bank you are at risk. That is just life. Just the same as if you stuff it in a mattress, you are at risk of your house burning down.

When you put your money into the bank you agree that they can use a fraction of your money (90%) to invest.
You then receive interest payments as a payment from the bank for letting them use your money.
They also take their cut.
So example.
You put $1000 into the bank. The bank then invests or loan out at 5%. The bank then pays you 2.5% as your share and keeps 2.5% as it's cut for its service. (It invests your money for you which is a service).

If you don't want this "service" then don't put your money in a bank.
But also, if banks never charged interest (besides the fact they would never lend money) you would also never receive interest and banks would actually charge you to keep money in the bank as compensation for taking on the risk and responsibility of looking after your money for you.


Quote:People will not be able to earn a living off the interest off the money
in their accounts, which is also great seeing as they have basicly
allready done this today to try and stimulate the economy. That £million
you have in the bank, if you want it to grow then go and out and do
something productive with it.

I keep answering what you're saying before you say it..
That $million sitting in the bank earning interest is what is paying for your mortgage son.

I think you will also find that a lot of people with $million's of dollars don't just have it sitting in the bank either, they do often invest in w/e (not just shares, but houses etc..)

Quote:I dont see how we can live in a fair society when people can be born
into money, that then fuels their lifestyle by simply existing in
different accounts, who never have to do a days work in their life or
contribute.... compared to somebody who is born in nothing who has to
work all of their lifes to live and struggle from day to day.

How is some millionaire spoiled kid's life in relation to yours any different then your life in relation to someone living in an African refugee camp?

Quote:Nobody would buy goverment bonds caus it would not be worth their investment, great.

You do know that when a government wants money for projects such as say.. war (the obvious one), big sporting events, big road projects etc.. etc.. I'm sure the UK government did it for the Olympics etc.. they issue bonds so that they can pay for that sort of thing.

I'm not gonna bother to explain why this is important because it's quarter to 4am.
Ask me if you're confused and I'll answer tomorrow.

Quote:Then the goverment should issue the currency themselves seeing as they
are meant to be the ones in "power", the people who create and dictate
the laws.

I don't even know what the fuck you mean.
The government doesn't just print money and give it all out. If that is how the world operates then governments would have unlimited power/potential.
We have taxes for a reason, the government has only so much money to work with. It doesn't just, print more.
Printing more causes inflation which just worsens the situation.

Quote:Why are they even borrowing off private banks?

Because the demand for what the people want from the government always supersedes the limited money the government has to work with.
That homeless shelter you were complaining about being shut down the other day, that costs money to operate. That money has to come from somewhere.


Quote:Money should just be used as a means of exchange. It should not be used
to make rich people/organisations even richer off the efforts of the
lower classes.

North Korea that way. ---->

There always has been and always will be people who are more powerful then others.
Just like how the Prime Minister is more powerful (and rich) then me, I am more powerful and rich then some slum dweller in Deli.

The potential for increases ones wealth is what drives progress in society.
Without it we might as well be living in the Dark ages, going nowhere.
Do you sometimes have the option for extra work shifts? That is an example of wanting to increase your wealth. The result is that you work more.
This principle works everywhere.
Me starting my business after university. I'll do that because there is potential to increase my personal wealth.
Without the potential to increase my overall wealth I would in no way be taking on such enormous risk and responsibility of starting a business as why would I do that? it goes back to Option A and B with the interest rates.

Progress and growth are directly linked to incentives to improve ones position.
That can either be via monetary, or maybe with me learning photoshop. I learn photoshop and at the end of it I have progressed on my original standing, the reward and incentive being that I now know photoshop.
It's not just an economic principle, it's a basic human principle. It is why pure communism will NEVER work.



Bemore, I gotta say, you've said some pretty retarded shit before but that was the mustard on the cake.

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11-01-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 09:06 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I mean you digging up a vein of gold ore in your backyard.


Especially since I live on glacial till. I might find a few nuggets.

The backyard thing is for amusement; the point is that wealth is created all the time without debt.

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11-01-2013, 09:18 AM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
Well then, touche sir.

I know when I'm beat. -_-

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11-01-2013, 11:36 AM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 08:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  Of course money and wealth can be created without debt.

I go out to my back yard, dig, discover a vein of gold ore. Voila, wealth, not debt.

Of course you can. However that is not how the world operates currently.

(11-01-2013 09:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  LOL!!! ROFL!!! ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS!!!??

Yes.

(11-01-2013 09:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Fucking hell, I dunno if it's worth replying to that level of stupidity.

Then why did you?

(11-01-2013 09:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Bemore, I gotta say, you've said some pretty retarded shit before but that was the mustard on the cake.

You asked me for an alternative option and I gave you my thoughts. Wether you think this idea or any of my ideas are "retarded shit" then thats up to you... I frankly dont give a shit.

I however think it is retarded that we have a system that will forever go into growth, then recession, then growth, then recession... as long as we have interest.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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11-01-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 11:36 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 08:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  Of course money and wealth can be created without debt.

I go out to my back yard, dig, discover a vein of gold ore. Voila, wealth, not debt.

Of course you can. However that is not how the world operates currently.
What exactly are you disputing?

Wealth, and therefore money, can be and is created without generating debt. Resources, inventions, manufacturing all create wealth.

Is money printed by creating debt? Sure. But Money also comes from wealth.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-01-2013, 11:45 AM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 11:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 11:36 AM)bemore Wrote:  Of course you can. However that is not how the world operates currently.
What exactly are you disputing?

Wealth, and therefore money, can be and is created without generating debt. Resources, inventions, manufacturing all create wealth.

Is money printed by creating debt? Sure. But Money also comes from wealth.
I agree that physical objects can have a value. However in modern money mechanics the generation of new money is done through the issuing of debt.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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11-01-2013, 11:58 AM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 11:45 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 11:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  What exactly are you disputing?

Wealth, and therefore money, can be and is created without generating debt. Resources, inventions, manufacturing all create wealth.

Is money printed by creating debt? Sure. But Money also comes from wealth.
I agree that physical objects can have a value. However in modern money mechanics the generation of new money is done through the issuing of debt.
And I am disputing that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-01-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 11:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  And I am disputing that.
Have I missed something?

If you can add anything I will be pleased to listen, if what I am saying is wrong I need to be told so I can stop.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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11-01-2013, 12:13 PM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 08:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  Of course money and wealth can be created without debt.

I go out to my back yard, dig, discover a vein of gold ore. Voila, wealth, not debt.

Yea, but YOU didn't create it... God did.



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11-01-2013, 01:37 PM
RE: The problem with the economy, IMO.
(11-01-2013 12:13 PM)kim Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 08:46 AM)Chas Wrote:  Of course money and wealth can be created without debt.

I go out to my back yard, dig, discover a vein of gold ore. Voila, wealth, not debt.

Yea, but YOU didn't create it... God did.



Unsure
So I'm indebted to God? So creating wealth creates debt? No wonder I'm always in debt. Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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