The regressive left.
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07-06-2016, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2016 01:04 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: The regressive left.
I understand that there are people who make bad arguments on the "regressive left", but I have called someone a bigot on numerous occasions in conversation... which the guy in that interview claims can be deflected by saying "In your opinion." And the people I say it to deflect it with exactly that sort of retort.

However, I then go on to define the word "bigot" (or "prejudiced", or "homophobe", or whatever), and explain exactly why holding the positions the person I'm accusing holds, even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, makes them that.

An example: In the recent Bathroom Wars, I heard over and over again the assertion that Trans* people are "Gender Dysphoric", which (according to them) makes them "mentally disturbed persons" because it appears in the DSM. Even after explaining, with links to the scholarly articles about it from top psychological journals, that GD is not the same as being trans*, that having a condition in the DSM (such as, say, anorexia or depression) does not make one "mentally disturbed", and that science has shown that the trans* phenomenon is explained by neurology and not just feelings, they continue to make that assertion. They state that tolerance of trans* people in bathrooms will make it more likely that women and children are attacked (and assert that I don't care about women), even after I've shown them links to police and government civil rights organizations that track such things which show that in places where the pro-trans* laws have been in place for YEARS have shown zero increase in such attacks. They continue to call them "sick" and emphasize what a tiny percentage of the population we're talking about (0.3% is the main estimate), decrying how I can ask them to give up the rights of the majority on behalf of such a small number of persons, even after I explain that Constitutional/Civil Rights don't work on percentages, and would still be valid even if only one person in the country was in that category. These things make them a bigot, and I call them on it. At that point, I start getting called everything from a communist to a "libtard"... even though at no point have I appealed to emotion or anything else but demonstrable fact.

I bring this particular example up because the commentator in the video repeatedly refers to the liberals as being the ones who use emotional pleas rather than facts, and only care if something adheres to their (and only their) notions of proper moral behavior, including the allegation that they're willing to "sacrifice" the rights of the majority, even when (as he says) they don't even know someone in the category being defended. The irony appears to escape him that what he's saying, there, is that the liberals making the arguments belong to the group whose rights are being "sacrificed".

Now don't get me wrong, there are many extremists on the fringe of liberal movements, including the feminists and LGBTQ rights activists, who are as bad as anyone on the Right, and whose illogical arguments make my skin crawl... but those two are acting as if it is the norm among the "regressive" (as they call it) Left, when that is simply not the case in my experience. [Edit to Add: I consider myself both a feminist and an LGBTQ rights activist, and I nevertheless decry the actions and tactics of the extremists in those groups.]

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07-06-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: The regressive left.
(07-06-2016 12:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  What makes it the regressive left as opposed to y'know, just the left?

Well , there is no precise definition, but from my point of view, most concise way of putting it would be that's it's when you start abandoning or abusing liberal principles using the "end justifies the means" as your excuse.

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07-06-2016, 02:34 PM
RE: The regressive left.
the wiki entry revolved around the use of it when describing anti-islamism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left
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07-06-2016, 02:38 PM
RE: The regressive left.
As i try to grasp it, that's as undefined as the guy in the video saying to contrast regressive left it is just sticking to universal liberal principles.

It's a limp case as there can be. Because anyone someone else may call regressive left might say they absolutely are following universal liberal principles, but that's just a leaping to what defines universal.

I don't know what caused the silly regressive term. It's just people proposing authoritarian angles on the particulars about social behaviors and cultural awareness in regards to their hotbed chosen issues of the time.

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07-06-2016, 03:41 PM
RE: The regressive left.
(07-06-2016 01:01 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I understand that there are people who make bad arguments on the "regressive left", but I have called someone a bigot on numerous occasions in conversation... which the guy in that interview claims can be deflected by saying "In your opinion." And the people I say it to deflect it with exactly that sort of retort.

However, I then go on to define the word "bigot" (or "prejudiced", or "homophobe", or whatever), and explain exactly why holding the positions the person I'm accusing holds, even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary, makes them that.

An example: In the recent Bathroom Wars, I heard over and over again the assertion that Trans* people are "Gender Dysphoric", which (according to them) makes them "mentally disturbed persons" because it appears in the DSM. Even after explaining, with links to the scholarly articles about it from top psychological journals, that GD is not the same as being trans*, that having a condition in the DSM (such as, say, anorexia or depression) does not make one "mentally disturbed", and that science has shown that the trans* phenomenon is explained by neurology and not just feelings, they continue to make that assertion. They state that tolerance of trans* people in bathrooms will make it more likely that women and children are attacked (and assert that I don't care about women), even after I've shown them links to police and government civil rights organizations that track such things which show that in places where the pro-trans* laws have been in place for YEARS have shown zero increase in such attacks. They continue to call them "sick" and emphasize what a tiny percentage of the population we're talking about (0.3% is the main estimate), decrying how I can ask them to give up the rights of the majority on behalf of such a small number of persons, even after I explain that Constitutional/Civil Rights don't work on percentages, and would still be valid even if only one person in the country was in that category. These things make them a bigot, and I call them on it. At that point, I start getting called everything from a communist to a "libtard"... even though at no point have I appealed to emotion or anything else but demonstrable fact.

I bring this particular example up because the commentator in the video repeatedly refers to the liberals as being the ones who use emotional pleas rather than facts, and only care if something adheres to their (and only their) notions of proper moral behavior, including the allegation that they're willing to "sacrifice" the rights of the majority, even when (as he says) they don't even know someone in the category being defended. The irony appears to escape him that what he's saying, there, is that the liberals making the arguments belong to the group whose rights are being "sacrificed".

Now don't get me wrong, there are many extremists on the fringe of liberal movements, including the feminists and LGBTQ rights activists, who are as bad as anyone on the Right, and whose illogical arguments make my skin crawl... but those two are acting as if it is the norm among the "regressive" (as they call it) Left, when that is simply not the case in my experience. [Edit to Add: I consider myself both a feminist and an LGBTQ rights activist, and I nevertheless decry the actions and tactics of the extremists in those groups.]

In the example you provided, you were discussing the "bathroom issue" with homophobes and transphobes and bigots, they are regressive by nature, so them labeling you as libtard or communist without refuting the points you made doesn't come as a surprise.

Problem here is that there are people on the left side of the political spectrum who also use the same tactic and who think that calling someone a bigot or a racist or whatever somehow automatically refutes the point said person made.

It doesn't, even if they are in fact bigots or racists. You can refute an argument only by addressing the argument itself, not by labeling the person who made it, regardless of whether label is correct or not.

To make things worse, people who I refer as regressive left are not confused about it, they actually believe that it is more important who made an argument then what the argument is, and they are quite unapologetic about it.

People are being told that their opinions on gender or race issues are worthless and that they shouldn't even be allowed to express one just based on them being a white male.

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07-06-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: The regressive left.
(07-06-2016 12:44 PM)morondog Wrote:  What makes it the regressive left as opposed to y'know, just the left?

Well for starters it is to make sure we don't through all liberals and other left leaning people into one group. How fair would it be for me to say all people on the left are being regressive? Hell, the people in the video talking about how bad the regressive left is are in fact liberals.

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07-06-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: The regressive left.
(07-06-2016 10:30 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 08:40 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  You have to use a very broad definition of "thinking" to describe the process they utilize to come up with shit they come up with.

Well just because someone is thinking doesn't mean that what they are thinking is intelligent.

... and the corollary to that is that just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't thinking.

Me, I regard the ability to reasonably take aboard disagreement as a mark of intelligence. It's a little more difficult than simply calling the other guy names, but it works for me.
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07-06-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: The regressive left.
If you think it's wrong to criticize Islam, you're part of the regressive left.

If you think all pro-lifers are prolife because they want to control women's vaginas, you're part of it.

If you think it's wrong to label a 50 year old man who thinks he's a 6 year old girl, as mentally ill, etc.....

The new feminist wave, etc..all of it, it's authoritarian in nature and is the biggest threat to free speech.





Not that I agree with crowder, but he does a good job of illustrating the craziness.
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07-06-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: The regressive left.
That's a bunch of "if"s, Matt. Perhaps you should talk to people and not hypotheticals?
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07-06-2016, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 07-06-2016 06:39 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The regressive left.
(07-06-2016 05:46 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If you think it's wrong to criticize Islam, you're part of the regressive left.

OK? Are there any precautions I need to take?

(07-06-2016 05:46 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If you think all pro-lifers are prolife because they want to control women's vaginas, you're part of it.

No. That's just stupid. Why would you even post that to me unless you see me as a idiot?

#sigh
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