The religion that must not be criticized...
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02-09-2014, 11:34 AM
The religion that must not be criticized...
Another beheading, another story about Islam and it's degrading intolerance of almost anything non-Muslim. These stories still shock me, and by now it shouldn't surprise me, but it still does.

Steven Sotloff is their new victim, a US hostage. I can only wonder where all of the 'Moderate' Muslims in my country (UK) have hidden, as by now you'd think representing such a peaceful religion, they'd come out and AT LEAST condemn the murder. They always keep quite about it, don't they? This brings me to a question, what purpose does this term 'moderate' mean? When those claiming to represent it as the 'tolerant and peaceful' wing of Islam, is in my mind, just an invisible elephant in the room. I can name a few examples of these types, Mehdi Hasan is a journalist for the UK Huffington Post and will go on and television with his 'I wear a nice suit, and I am a peaceful, tolerant humanist' and yet tries absolutely anything to defend his religion, whilst at the same time trying to block any attempt by critics (particularly Atheists) that point fingers at Islam. Two reasons why him, and people like him need to be exposed:
1. They always say extremism is caused by political motivations and money.
2. Their best argument against Atheism is the classic 'Hitler and Stalin were Atheists, so all Atheists must be murderous dictators'.

Discuss.

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02-09-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
Yup. I've seen some of his Al Jazeera inteviews. Well, I have seen worse but no, I have seen nothing in the way of criticism of extremism from him.

I get why non-public figures i.e. my muslim colleagues don't condemn IS bloodshed (although they soak up the anti-Isreal rhetoric without question) because it seems so removed from their daily lives. It's the same reason why a moderate West Ham fan rarely condemned 'the firm'... it's too removed from who they are / what they identify with.

But someone in the public gaze? An influencer? Silence seems to indicate approval.

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02-09-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
(02-09-2014 12:13 PM)DLJ Wrote:  (although they soak up the anti-Isreal rhetoric without question)

I have also noticed this. I also don't think you'll see many Muslims protesting against Hamas using Palestinians as human shields, and their people being ruled by a terrorist organization. One can only hope...

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02-09-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
(02-09-2014 11:34 AM)I Slappa DaFace Wrote:  Another beheading, another story about Islam and it's degrading intolerance of almost anything non-Muslim. These stories still shock me, and by now it shouldn't surprise me, but it still does.

Steven Sotloff is their new victim, a US hostage. I can only wonder where all of the 'Moderate' Muslims in my country (UK) have hidden, as by now you'd think representing such a peaceful religion, they'd come out and AT LEAST condemn the murder. They always keep quite about it, don't they? This brings me to a question, what purpose does this term 'moderate' mean? When those claiming to represent it as the 'tolerant and peaceful' wing of Islam, is in my mind, just an invisible elephant in the room. I can name a few examples of these types, Mehdi Hasan is a journalist for the UK Huffington Post and will go on and television with his 'I wear a nice suit, and I am a peaceful, tolerant humanist' and yet tries absolutely anything to defend his religion, whilst at the same time trying to block any attempt by critics (particularly Atheists) that point fingers at Islam. Two reasons why him, and people like him need to be exposed:
1. They always say extremism is caused by political motivations and money.
2. Their best argument against Atheism is the classic 'Hitler and Stalin were Atheists, so all Atheists must be murderous dictators'.

Discuss.

One has only to look at their "holy book".

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

""Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-09-2014, 04:57 PM
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
They're not going against scripture - that's why it's pointless waiting for criticism from the islamic community - although it is welcome when it does appear...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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02-09-2014, 07:09 PM
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
When the so-called moderate Muslims stand up and condemn these acts, then I will believe they are, in fact, moderates.

Until then, they are all disingenuous cowards. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-09-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
(02-09-2014 07:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  When the so-called moderate Muslims stand up and condemn these acts, then I will believe they are, in fact, moderates.

Until then, they are all disingenuous cowards. Drinking Beverage

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02-09-2014, 10:13 PM
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
(02-09-2014 04:45 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(02-09-2014 11:34 AM)I Slappa DaFace Wrote:  Another beheading, another story about Islam and it's degrading intolerance of almost anything non-Muslim. These stories still shock me, and by now it shouldn't surprise me, but it still does.

Steven Sotloff is their new victim, a US hostage. I can only wonder where all of the 'Moderate' Muslims in my country (UK) have hidden, as by now you'd think representing such a peaceful religion, they'd come out and AT LEAST condemn the murder. They always keep quite about it, don't they? This brings me to a question, what purpose does this term 'moderate' mean? When those claiming to represent it as the 'tolerant and peaceful' wing of Islam, is in my mind, just an invisible elephant in the room. I can name a few examples of these types, Mehdi Hasan is a journalist for the UK Huffington Post and will go on and television with his 'I wear a nice suit, and I am a peaceful, tolerant humanist' and yet tries absolutely anything to defend his religion, whilst at the same time trying to block any attempt by critics (particularly Atheists) that point fingers at Islam. Two reasons why him, and people like him need to be exposed:
1. They always say extremism is caused by political motivations and money.
2. Their best argument against Atheism is the classic 'Hitler and Stalin were Atheists, so all Atheists must be murderous dictators'.

Discuss.

One has only to look at their "holy book".

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

""Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

I think you will find comparable passages in many other religious books. This mindset is not specific to islam but it is certainly the most currently virulent one.
(did that even make sense?) in another 1200 years mormons will be doing the same shit. And 150 years after that scientologists.
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02-09-2014, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2014 11:57 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
(02-09-2014 10:13 PM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  
(02-09-2014 04:45 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  One has only to look at their "holy book".

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

""Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

I think you will find comparable passages in many other religious books. This mindset is not specific to islam but it is certainly the most currently virulent one.
(did that even make sense?) in another 1200 years mormons will be doing the same shit. And 150 years after that scientologists.

Christianity already had their reformation, they already got their massive split and their infighting (between the Catholics and the Protestants) mostly out of their system by now. Mormons got their shit kicked in already, that's why they're in Utah; they were driven there after effectively starting a war in other territories and being driven out of them (some states still had laws allowing the state sanctioned killing of Mormons on their books until the 70's). Scientology has never been all that popular.

But Islam? They've been split since almost day one, and they've never had a reformation; a moment of introspection and critique. It's a religion still in the heat of it's relative infancy. Unfortunately now we have a global economy, telecommunications, the AK-47, and nuclear weapons. One can only imagine the devastation that would have been wrought had Christians had these tools at their disposal during the medieval Crusades.

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03-09-2014, 05:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2014 07:59 AM by earmuffs.)
RE: The religion that must not be criticized...
Why Islam sucks: A quick lesson in politics and history
By Muffs.

*deep breath*

So the Roman Empire gathered many many different (and powerful) cultures under one roof and allowed for cultural exchange and trade. This allowed Rome to increase economically, culturally, politically, technologically (and thus militarily) much faster then her neighbors who didn't share the same standard of wealth and power. This lead to division similar to todays western and developing nations and allowed Europe to become a powerful and wealthy area. It also didn't hinder that Italy was rather fertile. So along comes Christianity and it eventually becomes the official religion. Skip a bit and you got rampaging barbarians. Luckily however these barbarians liked the idea of Christianity and eventually gave up their own gods in father of Romes Christianity. This meant that when the Gauls and Goths and Celts and Vandals and other barbarians eventually tore the Romans a new asshole and Rome split into two and the Western Empire broke up altogether, the resulting thing of early France and HRE and other nations were all Christian. Power remained in Rome but instead of being The Roman Empire it was this new powerful force, Christianity, in the form of the Papal State. So you have powerful empire (Rome) split up into several fractures (British states, France, Italy, Burgundy, HRE etc..) whom are all powerful (compared to non-ex-Roman nations) BUT are all still united under this "Christianity" thing. They might fight each other and crap but ultimately they have this common element.
Their royal families would often mingle and marry each other. Culture and trade still continued between these nations and these nations still grew powerful or at least remained relatively powerful.
The Byzantium Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) was, at it's height, a very powerful Empire and had capitalized on Western Roman Empire's collapse. It hand expanded into Italy. However in the 700's Islam had been around for about 100 years and had united Arabs as Muslims. These Muslims were able to very easily take Egypt, Syria and other rich provinces from the Byzantium's giving them a foothold in the region. The Seljuq's beat the Byzantiums in the 1000's and were able to take most of Antolia. The Seljuq were Sunni Muslims who were of Persian culture. As opposed to the Byzantium's who were Orthodox Christians and were mostly Greek in culture. The Byzantium Empire basically fissiled out was finally taken by the Ottomans in 1450-something.
So by about the 12th century Western Europe had been out of the Dark Ages for 200ish years and was flourishing. The Pope had become a thing and was able to somewhat keep Christian nations in check and unite them when needed (ie: Crusade). You have these big powerful Christian nations in the west and these big powerful Muslim states in the east. However in the east you have these polar opposite cultures that now hate each other. ie: You have Muslims moving into Antonia where previously Greeks were. You have Muslims moving into Jerusalem where Jews and Christians were. You have a lot more dissent. Where as if you're in western Europe everyone's fairly friendly with each other (don't get me wrong, they fought each other) because everyone's sorta the same. Christian and white. The Muslims were technologically, culturally, scientifically etc.. up there with the western Europeans, but the region was far less politically stable and so they were not able to capitalize on that as much as the western Europeans were and so the western Europeans were able to become more powerful in the long run.
Islam's best hope came around the 1300's with Osman 1st. The Seljuq Dynasty fell and fractured into several small states. Osman was able to capitalize on this and conqueror Antolia. In 1450-whatever when Constantinople was taken and the Byzantium Empire was destroyed, the Ottoman Empire was formed in its place. For the next 150ish years the Ottoman Empire conquered the Balkans, and large parts of the middle east and north Africa. It would have pushed into Western Europe had the Hungarians, Serbs and Austrians hadn't stopped it.
So by around 1500-1600 you now have several large powerful western, Christian, European nations, France, England, Spain, Holy Roman Empire states etc.. and one large eastern Muslim state, The Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire's expansion and military power slowly slipped into dismay. It had it's ups and down, share of good and bad Sultans but by the 1800's it was in total disarray following several useless Sultans.
Meanwhile Western Europe had had it's reformation. While this split Christianity and caused all sorts of issues, you could be Protestant and hate Catholicism, BUT Catholicism is still a shit load better then Islam... And because there were so many Christian countries if one became weak due to a bad ruler or whatever, another one was having some sort of Golden age or eating up the weaker nation. If the Ottoman Empire was having a bad time there wasn't much hope for Islam as a whole, it didn't really have an alternative. The Timurid's weren't that advanced (due to Mongolian conquest's).
And so because western European countries have had a politically very good run they have become the most powerful countries in the world. They are able to develop the best technology or buy it from those that can. During the 1500's and 1600's they were the first to the New World (due to their technologically advancements) and were able to spread their culture there. The Ottomans dabbled but nothing ultimately came of it. Eventually western European countries just kept growing in technology and eventually entered an Enlightenment period. People became more aware, more educated and started questioning things. They started questioning religion and their Kings/Queens. They were now loosely united not just by religion but by culture and power. Meanwhile the Ottoman Empire decayed and decayed. The Rise of Russia didn't help their cause. The Ottomans were never advanced enough to have their enlightenment. Their people didn't receive the same educational advancement that western European's had. As such Islam as a religion never grew and morphed with the change in public opinion because public opinion never changed like it did in the west with the west's Enlightenment age.
This is the issue that persist to this day. The Ottoman Empire slowly and painfully died until it was split up at the end of the WW1. The resulting countries in the coming decades and following WW2 and the Cold war haven't had enough time to grow.
You can see growth in places, ie: The UAE. Because the UAE is oil rich it was able to basically catch up to the west economically (and thus culturally, technologically etc..) and it is starting to lose dark age thinking that persists in Muslim countries that haven't had the same level of economic growth, ie: Iran. People in the UAE are more educated, more "enlightened" and as a result Islam there has become softer (softer, not soft). The issue is that this is a very long process. It has been happening to Christianity for the last several hundred years, where as it is just beginning in some Islam states.
I think countries like the UAE will have a positive flow on effect to other countries, ie: SA, which will have a flow on effect to Iraq, Iran etc.. and very slowly and over decades/hundreds of years, Islam will become much much softer then what it is today.

Or some such nonsense.

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