The resurrection
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23-02-2017, 04:11 PM
RE: The resurrection
Emma Wrote:Anyway, on bathrooms- I think that trans people should be free to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity.
I agree. It totally makes sense. I know that I would be comfortable with you in the same bathroom. It would look weird if you used men's bathrooms.

Emma Wrote:But really, it's a fabricated issue, and trans people have been using the restroom of their choice for decades and decades without real issue.
That is what I thought. I asked myself: "why is it suddenly a problem?" We have transgender people for a long time and they used bathrooms. Nobody talked about how they worry about safety of girls and women.
Who started this issue and why? Do you know?

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23-02-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 04:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:Anyway, on bathrooms- I think that trans people should be free to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity.
I agree. It totally makes sense. I know that I would be comfortable with you in the same bathroom. It would look weird if you used men's bathrooms.

Emma Wrote:But really, it's a fabricated issue, and trans people have been using the restroom of their choice for decades and decades without real issue.
That is what I thought. I asked myself: "why is it suddenly a problem?" We have transgender people for a long time and they used bathrooms. Nobody talked about how they worry about safety of girls and women.
Who started this issue and why? Do you know?

Damn, Alla, you are sounding reasonable. I hope this is a new trend for you.

You are more accepting than I would have thought.

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23-02-2017, 04:14 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 12:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 12:41 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I have to let you know that I find the "cis" prefix offensive.

Cisgender is the proper clinical term. At least that's the term the people who publish on pubmed use.

Wow. There's a shitload of different gradations.

Gender - denotes the public (and usually legally recognized) lived role as boy or girl, man or woman. Biological factors combined with social and psychological factors contribute to gender development.
Assigned gender - refers to a person’s initial assignment as male or female at birth. It is based on the child’s genitalia and other visible physical sex characteristics.
Gender-atypical - refers to physical features or behaviors that are not typical of individuals of the same assigned gender in a given society.
Gender-nonconforming - refers to behaviors that are not typical of individuals with the same assigned gender in a given society.
Gender reassignment - denotes an official (and usually legal) change of gender.
Gender identity - is a category of social identity and refers to an individual’s identification as male, female or, occasionally, some category other than male or female. It is one’s deeply held core sense of being male, female, some of both or neither, and does not always correspond to biological sex.
Gender dysphoria - as a general descriptive term refers to an individual’s discontent with the assigned gender. It is more specifically defined when used as a diagnosis.
Transgender - refers to the broad spectrum of individuals who transiently or persistently identify with a gender different from their gender at birth. (Note: the term transgendered is not generally used.)
Transsexual - refers to an individual who seeks, or has undergone, a social transition from male to female or female to male. In many, but not all, cases this also involves a physical transition through cross-sex hormone treatment and genital surgery (sex reassignment surgery).
Genderqueer - blurring the lines around gender identity and sexual orientation. Genderqueer individuals typically embrace a fluidity of gender identity and sometimes sexual orientation.
Gender fluidity - having different gender identities at different times.
Agendered - ‘without gender,’ individuals identifying as having no gender identity.
Cisgender - describes individuals whose gender identity or expression aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth.
Gender expansiveness - conveys a wider, more flexible range of gender identity and/or expression than typically associated with the binary gender system.
Gender expression - the manner in which a person communicates about gender to others through external means such as clothing, appearance, or mannerisms. This communication may be conscious or subconscious and may or may not reflect their gender identity or sexual orientation.
Wow, I had no idea.

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23-02-2017, 04:22 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 04:13 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Damn, Alla, you are sounding reasonable. I hope this is a new trend for you.

You are more accepting than I would have thought.

I often think most people are born with common sense and it's slowly whittled away and moved aside by expectations of one's social environment.

Alla is here because she wants to see things for herself and maybe understand different points of view a bit better.

Kind of the reason we're all here. She fits in. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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23-02-2017, 04:34 PM
RE: The resurrection
Emma Wrote:I do dislike the term gender-normative, though. It feels too much like saying I'm abnormal- which feels alienating. I know I'm not part of the norm, but- reminding everyone that trans people are not normal and non trans people are the normal people just feels icky.
So, you understand that it is a FACT that you are not part of the norm. I saw this saying: "FACTS don't care about your feelings". I agree with that.
I think we should call things what they are. I don't believe that this is the problem. I believe the problem is that there are people who are not kind, judgmental and not willing to understand.
We can erase words/terms but we can not erase hate and unwillingness to understand.
If we accept people who are not norm they will not feel bad even if they called what they are.
Sometimes my daughter tell me that she wants to dress in certain way but she is afraid that she would not be a norm. Most of kids in her school are red necks. They have their style and all look kind of the same.
I always tell her:" it is wonderful to be unique. It is great to be out of norm." She listens to me.
So, what do you say, Heart EMMA Heart

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23-02-2017, 04:35 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 04:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  Who started this issue and why? Do you know?

Well, about a year before I started transitioning, so maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I started seeing posts on Facebook from my Step-Mom, who worked for Liberty University's lobbying group at the time, about trans people in bathrooms. That was the first I'd heard anything about it, even though I was already digging into the trans world pretty heavily. It wasn't until gay marriage was legalized by the Supreme Court that politicians picked up the banner as their next target now that gay marriage was settled. Then it picked up steam as a new political football to get the base of the religious right all riled up and to the polls.
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23-02-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 04:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:I do dislike the term gender-normative, though. It feels too much like saying I'm abnormal- which feels alienating. I know I'm not part of the norm, but- reminding everyone that trans people are not normal and non trans people are the normal people just feels icky.
So, you understand that it is a FACT that you are not part of the norm. I saw this saying: "FACTS don't care about your feelings". I agree with that.
I think we should call things what they are. I don't believe that this is the problem. I believe the problem is that there are people who are not kind, judgmental and not willing to understand.
We can erase words/terms but we can not erase hate and unwillingness to understand.
If we accept people who are not norm they will not feel bad even if they called what they are.
Sometimes my daughter tell me that she wants to dress in certain way but she is afraid that she would not be a norm. Most of kids in her school are red necks. They have their style and all look kind of the same.
I always tell her:" it is wonderful to be unique. It is great to be out of norm." She listens to me.
So, what do you say, Heart EMMA Heart

Thank you Alla! Heart

If people were accepting of people who were not part of the norm, I would have no problem being called "gender non-normative". But, people are not so easy. Sad

I gotta get going for the night, will check back tomorrow! Big Grin
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23-02-2017, 07:28 PM
RE: The resurrection
Who cares if you're called "cisgendered" or "cis", SYZ, as long as it's not being used in a derogatory fashion?

For fuck's sake, the salty tears of the oppressed majority! Rolleyes

It's a term invented to describe something with neutral terminology-- rather than the "normal" versus "not-normal" terminology that had previously been used. Now you're objecting to the neutral terminology because you don't get to be called "normal"?

Get the fuck out of here with that shit you special little snowflake! Laugh out load

Edit to Add: Seriously, Emma, you're way, way way way too nice to people. But that just makes you a better person than me. Wish I could be more like you. Heart

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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24-02-2017, 12:10 AM
RE: The resurrection
I was part of a previous discussion about all this, at the time the loonies were trying to change the law. I made a video with my thoughts, so I'll put it here in case anyone's interested Smile

The opening poster I refer to was a particularly nasty and ignorant person, making outrageous claims.




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24-02-2017, 02:03 AM
RE: The resurrection
Rob, that's a damned good video. I especially love your point about how what it really shows is the problem with letting bigots pass laws and disseminate misinformation... and how it is designed to do nothing more than allow bigots to bully those they can now segregate and identify as The Other™. That's why I fought so hard when the issue originally came up, here.

I still think John Oliver did the best job I've ever seen of covering this issue. (The section from around 2:45 to 3:25 in the video is particularly brilliant!)




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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