The resurrection
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24-02-2017, 02:21 AM
RE: The resurrection
Thanks very much Smile I'll check that video out too!

I felt so passionately about it that I had to get all my thoughts out, to hopefully counter a little of the misinformation and fearmongering.

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24-02-2017, 02:42 AM
RE: The resurrection
(24-02-2017 02:03 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Rob, that's a damned good video. I especially love your point about how what it really shows is the problem with letting bigots pass laws and disseminate misinformation... and how it is designed to do nothing more than allow bigots to bully those they can now segregate and identify as The Other™. That's why I fought so hard when the issue originally came up, here.

I still think John Oliver did the best job I've ever seen of covering this issue. (The section from around 2:45 to 3:25 in the video is particularly brilliant!)




That is fantastic! Thanks for sharing. It's an especially important point he made about the attitude of governments legitimizing bigotry and bullying.

As usual, I feel education is key.

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24-02-2017, 08:42 AM
RE: The resurrection
Heart TO EMMA Heart

Because I will never understand your life experience and you may be very sensitive to some words I may offend you unintentionally.
But I want to understand you better.


Emma Wrote:Well, about a year before I started transitioning, so maybe 3 or 4 years ago, I started seeing posts on Facebook from my Step-Mom, who worked for Liberty University's lobbying group at the time, about trans people in bathrooms. That was the first I'd heard anything about it, even though I was already digging into the trans world pretty heavily. It wasn't until gay marriage was legalized by the Supreme Court that politicians picked up the banner as their next target now that gay marriage was settled. Then it picked up steam as a new political football to get the base of the religious right all riled up and to the polls.
Ok, so everything was fine, people used bathrooms, nobody talked about them, there was no issues, nobody proposed any laws about bathrooms until some lobbying groups started to post things on FB about trans people in bathrooms. Correct? Is this who started all this mess?

Today I saw in one article this:
"Wednesday, administration officials withdrew guidance issued under President Obama that instructed the nation’s school districts to let transgender students use bathrooms corresponding to their chosen gender."
Why did Obama issue this guidance?

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24-02-2017, 08:52 AM
RE: The resurrection
Emma Wrote:If people were accepting of people who were not part of the norm, I would have no problem being called "gender non-normative". But, people are not so easy
I can understand your reason. Probably I would wanted the same thing you want. But I don't know this.
1)So, would you AGREE with me that it is THE TRUTH / FACT that transgender is "gender non-normative"?
2)Do I understand you correctly that you want to HIDE this TRUTH/FACT because there are people who will know this TRUTH and use it against you (to offend you, to be cruel to you)? (NOTE, if the answer to my question #1 is "no, I don't agree that it is THE TRUTH//FACT" then never mind question #2)

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24-02-2017, 08:59 AM
RE: The resurrection
Rob, that was a fantastic video, thank you for sharing. And you are correct on all your points. A segregated bathroom is not the solutions. Providing a family single-occupancy bathroom for those most comfortable using it is fine- but regulation requiring trans people use it is beyond the pale and no different than insisting people of color use a different bathroom or water fountain, as happened during the years of segregation in the US (and, as if to further compound the situation for people of color, the trans people in the greatest danger of being victims of violence are trans women of color).

Floor-to-ceiling stalls are just a no-brainer for those worried about safety, in my opinion.

Unisex bathrooms are fine with me, though they understandably difficult for some people who feel unsafe- especially survivors of sexual assault. So a single-occupancy washroom ought to also be available, in my opinion.

But- all of those things will be difficult, or impossible for some businesses to provide. And since there's just no basis for a change in requirements, why change anything at all?

Rocket- I love John Oliver's piece on trans issues, too. Very good video. I can't express how it made me feel to see him say something. I never expected it. Both 2015 and 2016 were good for trans people- but unfortunately a whole lot of that promise died away when Trump was elected.
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24-02-2017, 09:12 AM
RE: The resurrection
(24-02-2017 08:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  Unisex bathrooms are fine with me, though they understandably difficult for some people who feel unsafe- especially survivors of sexual assault. So a single-occupancy washroom ought to also be available, in my opinion.

But- all of those things will be difficult, or impossible for some businesses to provide. And since there's just no basis for a change in requirements, why change anything at all?

Just about every major chain in the People's Democtratic Republic Of Maryland has unisex single occupancy bathrooms with diaper changing stations. I remember they started to show up around the same I started to see men shopping wearing babies on their chest.

#sigh
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24-02-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: The resurrection
(24-02-2017 08:42 AM)Alla Wrote:  Ok, so everything was fine, people used bathrooms, nobody talked about them, there was no issues, nobody proposed any laws about bathrooms until some lobbying groups started to post things on FB about trans people in bathrooms. Correct? Is this who started all this mess?

Today I saw in one article this:
"Wednesday, administration officials withdrew guidance issued under President Obama that instructed the nation’s school districts to let transgender students use bathrooms corresponding to their chosen gender."
Why did Obama issue this guidance?

You are correct. To my knowledge, other than possibly one or two incidence (allowing for that possibility because I've not heard of them, though the number is still statistically insignificant if so), there were no issues which spurred this as an issue. It was religious conservative lobbying groups who began pushing this issue shortly before gay marriage was legalized. My guess is that they needed an issue to keep their base galvanized and consolidated.

Since the Right began pushing this as an issue, there have been a small number of reported issues of people trying to dress of as trans women to act as perverts or whatever. Though I can't speak to the veracity of those claims. They likely only happened as a result of this being fabricated into an issue.

Obama issued this guidance in response to many increasing reports of school administrators starting to monitor and restrict trans children from using the bathrooms that matched their gender identities rather than the bathrooms that match their assigned gender at birth. These schools would then force the children into a different bathroom to the detriment of the children involved, rather than properly educating classmates and school administrators- further alienating trans students and resulting to bullying by both other students and administrators.
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24-02-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: The resurrection
(24-02-2017 08:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Emma Wrote:If people were accepting of people who were not part of the norm, I would have no problem being called "gender non-normative". But, people are not so easy
I can understand your reason. Probably I would wanted the same thing you want. But I don't know this.
1)So, would you AGREE with me that it is THE TRUTH / FACT that transgender is "gender non-normative"?
2)Do I understand you correctly that you want to HIDE this TRUTH/FACT because there are people who will know this TRUTH and use it against you (to offend you, to be cruel to you)? (NOTE, if the answer to my question #1 is "no, I don't agree that it is THE TRUTH//FACT" then never mind question #2)


1) Yes, essentially. I accept that being transgender is atypical.
2) I'd say you're incorrect on this point. You say "hide" but that suggests to me that I'm ashamed of being different. And that's not the case. I do fear, though, the reactions of belligerent bigots who single-out people outside of the norm.

Switching the focus from what is essentially saying "normal" and "not normal" to a less dehumanizing label such as "cisgender" and "transgender" is not a new idea. We avoid such classifications in other areas, as well. Such as race- where we might list people by their skin color or ethnic background. Or such as sexuality- where we use language such as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, pansexual, etc. We use language not necessarily to hide our differences, but to classify with language that aims to decrease discrimination.

I hope that makes sense! Smile

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24-02-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: The resurrection
(24-02-2017 09:23 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(24-02-2017 08:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  I can understand your reason. Probably I would wanted the same thing you want. But I don't know this.
1)So, would you AGREE with me that it is THE TRUTH / FACT that transgender is "gender non-normative"?
2)Do I understand you correctly that you want to HIDE this TRUTH/FACT because there are people who will know this TRUTH and use it against you (to offend you, to be cruel to you)? (NOTE, if the answer to my question #1 is "no, I don't agree that it is THE TRUTH//FACT" then never mind question #2)


1) Yes, essentially. I accept that being transgender is atypical.
2) I'd say you're incorrect on this point. You say "hide" but that suggests to me that I'm ashamed of being different. And that's not the case. I do fear, though, the reactions of belligerent bigots who single-out people outside of the norm.

Switching the focus from what is essentially saying "normal" and "not normal" to a less dehumanizing label such as "cisgender" and "transgender" is not a new idea. We avoid such classifications in other areas, as well. Such as race- where we might list people by their skin color or ethnic background. Or such as sexuality- where we use language such as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, pansexual, etc. We use language not necessarily to hide our differences, but to classify with language that aims to decrease discrimination.

I hope that makes sense! Smile

Heart

I understand your point. It is always good at least to try to understand another side and reasons of their actions, proposals.
Because I want to be kind to all people, because I hate to offend people I have no problem with using terms "cisgender" and "transgender" as long as I am not forced to forget or to completely reject THE TRUTH/FACTS.

So,
1)do you believe that with time in some future banning term "gender non-normative" will decrease discrimination?
2)who came up with the term "gender non-normative"? do you know?
Heart

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24-02-2017, 10:00 AM
RE: The resurrection
(24-02-2017 09:13 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(24-02-2017 08:42 AM)Alla Wrote:  Ok, so everything was fine, people used bathrooms, nobody talked about them, there was no issues, nobody proposed any laws about bathrooms until some lobbying groups started to post things on FB about trans people in bathrooms. Correct? Is this who started all this mess?

Today I saw in one article this:
"Wednesday, administration officials withdrew guidance issued under President Obama that instructed the nation’s school districts to let transgender students use bathrooms corresponding to their chosen gender."
Why did Obama issue this guidance?

You are correct. To my knowledge, other than possibly one or two incidence (allowing for that possibility because I've not heard of them, though the number is still statistically insignificant if so), there were no issues which spurred this as an issue. It was religious conservative lobbying groups who began pushing this issue shortly before gay marriage was legalized. My guess is that they needed an issue to keep their base galvanized and consolidated.

Since the Right began pushing this as an issue, there have been a small number of reported issues of people trying to dress of as trans women to act as perverts or whatever. Though I can't speak to the veracity of those claims. They likely only happened as a result of this being fabricated into an issue.

Obama issued this guidance in response to many increasing reports of school administrators starting to monitor and restrict trans children from using the bathrooms that matched their gender identities rather than the bathrooms that match their assigned gender at birth. These schools would then force the children into a different bathroom to the detriment of the children involved, rather than properly educating classmates and school administrators- further alienating trans students and resulting to bullying by both other students and administrators.

Thank you Heart EMMA Heart for the information.
If we are already in this mess(genie is out of the bottle) we have to solve this.
The only reasonable solution in my humble opinion is unisex bathroom. We already have them in some facilities. Family bathrooms. They are my favorite. I have the most privacy in them.

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