The resurrection
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22-02-2017, 06:40 AM
RE: The resurrection
(21-02-2017 09:42 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Over time, this concept morphed into the whole dying-and-rising-god myth we see read into those scriptures, today. But it's not inherently in the text, except in hindsight, due to the shading of those who later came to see it that way.
Indeed, the gospels, which by design appear first in the New Testament, are generally for that reason alone read as if they establish the context of everything else in the NT. In fact, they were written LAST, and if you read the NT in the rough chronological order in which it was written, you begin instead with Paul's epistles, where it is questionable whether Jesus is even a physical being. He is presented as a celestial being, and if you read these letters as if the gospels didn't exist (which they didn't, at the time, not by a long shot) you see that the gospels were designed to transform Jesus into a flesh-and-blood god-man.

Tellingly, when Paul wants to validate his teaching, he does not appeal to Peter and the other supposed eyewitnesses of Jesus' life and ministry. He knew these people and it would be the logical thing to do. But no, he simply claims he was caught up in a vision to heaven and given this information about Jesus direct from god. Why is that? Obviously, there were no events to be corroborated. This is why I have come to believe that Jesus is either a fabulized composite character or outright fabrication.

Another thing in the mix is that the gnostic faction was battling it out with what eventually became Christian orthodoxy at the time the gospels were written. There was a theological motivation to push the Jesus mythos in the direction the gospels took it -- to establish that he wasn't simply a heavenly son of god, but an earthly and physical one. Indeed, there are competing gospels that were eventually discarded by later church councils, and cast out of the canon of scripture, that lean more in the gnostic direction.

All of this argues against a literal resurrection and the other more fantastical elements of the miracle-working gospel Jesus.
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22-02-2017, 10:41 AM
RE: The resurrection
GirlyMan Wrote:So resurrection could imply the reembodiment of a particular soul in a completely new body? Or it could mean the remanifestation of a particular soul in some vestige of a specific physical body (a clone, for example)?
These two could be the case. I think.
GirlyMan Wrote:To narrow these options down further let me ask you this. Do you believe in the postmortem preservation of identity?
Yes, this what I really believe. LDS Doctrine is very clear on this. We also believe that when we(spirits) come to this world and obtain our physical mortal bodies we have our pre-mortal identity. It is not blank page.
GirlyMan Wrote:When you are resurrected (rejoined seems more descriptive) will you remember Alla?
yes, I will. This is what I strongly believe. LDS doctrine is very clear on this
GirlyMan Wrote:Does it even matter if you do or not?
Yes, it is very, very important. LDS doctrine is very clear on this.
BTW, gender is also very, very important.
But in our society it seems that gender is not that important any more.

English is my second language.
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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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22-02-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: The resurrection
mordant Wrote:with Paul's epistles, where it is questionable whether Jesus is even a physical being. He is presented as a celestial being
Did Paul teach that celestial being can not be physical being?

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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22-02-2017, 10:56 AM
RE: The resurrection
(22-02-2017 10:41 AM)Alla Wrote:  But in our society it seems that gender is not that important any more.

Oh.
That must be the reason then they moved the NBA All Star Game and why people were fighting like mad about where people could or could not pee.

Facepalm

The one thing that's very clear about LDS "doctrine" ... it's one f'd up cult.
They had a meeting on the radio last weekend of "ex-morons". OMG. Worse than 'recovering Catholics'. Big Grin

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-02-2017, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2017 11:07 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The resurrection
Interesting. Thanks, Alla.

(22-02-2017 10:41 AM)Alla Wrote:  
GirlyMan Wrote:To narrow these options down further let me ask you this. Do you believe in the postmortem preservation of identity?
Yes, this what I really believe. LDS Doctrine is very clear on this. We also believe that when we(spirits) come to this world and obtain our physical mortal bodies we have our pre-mortal identity. It is not blank page.

Interesting. So no Lockean tabula rasa for you. Nothing you have said so far seems inconsistent with reincarnation or repeated resurrection. Do you or the LDS take a position on reincarnation?

(22-02-2017 10:41 AM)Alla Wrote:  BTW, gender is also very, very important.

In what sense? I thought angels were gender and genitalia free, no?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-02-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: The resurrection
(21-02-2017 03:40 PM)adey67 Wrote:  I had a resur-erection the day before yesterday. Tongue Big Grin

Penile resection?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-02-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: The resurrection
Thank you for your questions. I absolutely love to answer sincere questions.

GirlyMan Wrote:Nothing you have said so far seems inconsistent with reincarnation or repeated resurrection. Do you or the LDS take a position on reincarnation?
LDS do not teach reincarnation. As I understand reincarnation spirit can enter human female physical body in one life then it can enter human male physical body in another life, then animal's body, then plant's body. I think it depends on how you lived current life
We(LDS) believe that spirit obtains physical body in this life and during resurrection. That's it. Male spirit obtains male physical body. Female spirit obtains female physical body.
But for some reason in this FALLEN world some male spirits are not comfortable in female body or opposite. Why it happens is mystery for us. But we are here to learn what it means to struggle. I assume that people who are confused about their gender identity struggle. I can not understand their struggles but I have compassion for them and I love them.
I have my own struggles or as Paul said "I have thorn in my body". Paul asked God to remove this thorn from his body but God told him "sorry, but no". I wonder what was Paul's thorn/struggle?

GirlyMan Wrote:In what sense? I thought angels were gender and genitalia free, no?
We believe that physical body is formed in the image and after likeness of spiritual body. Spiritual body has male parts and female parts. But they are totally useless. This is why physical bodies are very important. As spirit in physical body you can do what you were not able to do in pre-mortal life. When you resurrect and obtain new physical body you will be able to do even more great things.
For example, we have some organs that seem like totally useless. But who knows? May be they will be useful after resurrection.
Angels. Who are angels?
They are:
pre-mortal men or women
mortal men or women
post mortal men or women
resurrected men or women.
They are not some kind of strange immaterial genderless creatures.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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22-02-2017, 11:56 AM
RE: The resurrection
(21-02-2017 10:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:I only claim that the original version of Mark (not counting any of the additions) has an abbreviated resurrection story in it (at least in any of the English translations I have seen -- I do not read Greek). That's all. I defy you to find a post on this thread in which I have claimed any more than that.

No, you claimed there is confusion about the issue and made the additional claim that what we see in the earliest Greek manuscripts has been "abbreviated." Really? The whole point of jesusism is the frigging resurrection why would they abbreviate that? Further, in order to "abbreviate" it you must pretend that the whole story was there and for some silly reason they elected to cut it out.

That's a bridge too far.

No, you're putting words in my mouth again.

1. The "confusion" to which I originally referred has to do with multiple people claiming that there is NO resurrection in the original version of Mark (which ends at chapter 16, verse 8). I quoted verses 6 and 7 to show that this is clearly not the case.

2. When I said that the original version of Mark has an abbreviated resurrection story, I did not intend to imply that this is some sort of truncated version of a story that was originally longer. I have no idea whether or not that is the case. I only meant that it is abbreviated compared to the stories in the other three Gospels.

I would fully agree that what we have in the original version of Mark is extremely rudimentary, and that the story was more and more embellished with each Gospel that came after that. What strikes me as a "bridge too far" is to claim that there is no mention at all of a resurrection in Mark. To make that claim, you would have to eliminate all of chapter 16, not just the added verses. If 16: 1-8 is part of the original manuscript, then the original manuscript contains a resurrection, however meager and rudimentary that account might be. Would it kill you all to make that small concession?

I'm done beating this dead horse. If you all want to keep pretending something isn't there that clearly is there, go for it. I'm out. Sheesh!
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22-02-2017, 11:58 AM
RE: The resurrection
(22-02-2017 11:35 AM)Alla Wrote:  Thank you for your questions. I absolutely love to answer sincere questions.

GirlyMan Wrote:Nothing you have said so far seems inconsistent with reincarnation or repeated resurrection. Do you or the LDS take a position on reincarnation?
LDS do not teach reincarnation. As I understand reincarnation spirit can enter human female physical body in one life then it can enter human male physical body in another life, then animal's body, then plant's body. I think it depends on how you lived current life
We(LDS) believe that spirit obtains physical body in this life and during resurrection. That's it. Male spirit obtains male physical body. Female spirit obtains female physical body.
But for some reason in this FALLEN world some male spirits are not comfortable in female body or opposite. Why it happens is mystery for us. But we are here to learn what it means to struggle. I assume that people who are confused about their gender identity struggle. I can not understand their struggles but I have compassion for them and I love them.
I have my own struggles or as Paul said "I have thorn in my body". Paul asked God to remove this thorn from his body but God told him "sorry, but no". I wonder what was Paul's thorn/struggle?

GirlyMan Wrote:In what sense? I thought angels were gender and genitalia free, no?
We believe that physical body is formed in the image and after likeness of spiritual body. Spiritual body has male parts and female parts. But they are totally useless. This is why physical bodies are very important. As spirit in physical body you can do what you were not able to do in pre-mortal life. When you resurrect and obtain new physical body you will be able to do even more great things.
For example, we have some organs that seem like totally useless. But who knows? May be they will be useful after resurrection.
Angels. Who are angels?
They are:
pre-mortal men or women
mortal men or women
post mortal men or women
resurrected men or women.
They are not some kind of strange immaterial genderless creatures.

Alla, your post was insightful, thank you.
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22-02-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: The resurrection
(22-02-2017 11:35 AM)Alla Wrote:  ---
I have my own struggles or as Paul said "I have thorn in my body". Paul asked God to remove this thorn from his body but God told him "sorry, but no". I wonder what was Paul's thorn/struggle?

Well... BTW I am speculating from personal research ...

One could say it is apparent in his writings that Paul resented women in general - he gets pretty shitty about it. Such resentments could stem from the understanding that he was a bastard and he blamed his mother for this. Paul's mother was Jewish and his father was most likely a Roman of some status. He possibly harbored a smidgen of self-hatred ... his struggles we're most likely internal, as are most people's. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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