The resurrection
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23-02-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: The resurrection
(22-02-2017 04:48 PM)adey67 Wrote:  
(22-02-2017 04:45 PM)Emma Wrote:  Well, I am transgender, though I am not confused. While it's not possible for me to convey exactly what it is to be trans, maybe this will help some (despite the obvious flaws in the example):

Let's say you are a woman. You are YOU. You have always been all your life. That's been your life as you know. Tomorrow morning, though, you wake up like with no knowledge of your past except that you've always been a woman, but your body has all men's features- including the bits that might horrify you- and missing the features that you're used to. Worse yet, everywhere you go, people are calling you "sir" and "man" and "dude", and the make fun of you any time you say or do something considered feminine and not masculine.

This goes on for years with no apparent way to address it, but the weight of all these things is building on you. You don't know the answer, the way to fix it, you just know it's wrong.

One day, it hits you. You're a girl, you know you're a girl, and there's a way to try to change your outside to match your inside. It's not a pretty way. It's messy, and lengthy, and dangerous. It will take YEARS to accomplish. And people will know for a while that you're doing it- because it will be obvious that you look weird. People you've grown to know and love might suddenly reject you. It's risky. Some people might react violently- but you know that if you don't, your depression will continue to grow and grow, and build and build until... Maybe you've already tried to end yourself just to make it stop, but NOW you have answers- you know that there might be a way and you're taking steps to fix it. Now there's hope, so you do it. You take those first steps, despite the risk. Despite the embarrassment and the shame that you feel. The shame that is put on you by a society that not only doesn't understand, but doesn't want to. Probably never can, but they don't even try. But you have to do it.

You aren't "confused". You know the answer, but to everyone else looking at you, you look like a confused freak. It's easy for them to say you're confused, but you have known for years who you are.

Anyway, I hope this helps. It's not meant to be combative. Best wishes! Smile
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23-02-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: The resurrection
Thank you so much for sharing with me a little bit about yourself. I learned something I didn't know before. HeartHeartHeart EMMA HeartHeartHeart
Emma Wrote:Let's say you are a woman. You are YOU. You have always been all your life. That's been your life as you know. Tomorrow morning, though, you wake up like with no knowledge of your past except that you've always been a woman, but your body has all men's features- including the bits that might horrify you- and missing the features that you're used to. Worse yet, everywhere you go, people are calling you "sir" and "man" and "dude", and the make fun of you any time you say or do something considered feminine and not masculine.
This is why I assumed that it would be confusing and a struggle when you always know that you are a woman but your physical body has male parts.
I have some questions. We have this big debate about bathrooms. People have their own ideas, opinions.
What is your opinion? What do you think would be the right thing to do? And why?

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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23-02-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 11:05 AM)Alla Wrote:  Thank you so much for sharing with me a little bit about yourself. I learned something I didn't know before. HeartHeartHeart EMMA HeartHeartHeart
Emma Wrote:Let's say you are a woman. You are YOU. You have always been all your life. That's been your life as you know. Tomorrow morning, though, you wake up like with no knowledge of your past except that you've always been a woman, but your body has all men's features- including the bits that might horrify you- and missing the features that you're used to. Worse yet, everywhere you go, people are calling you "sir" and "man" and "dude", and the make fun of you any time you say or do something considered feminine and not masculine.
This is why I assumed that it would be confusing and a struggle when you always know that you are a woman but your physical body has male parts.
I have some questions. We have this big debate about bathrooms. People have their own ideas, opinions.
What is your opinion? What do you think would be the right thing to do? And why?

Regarding confusion- for many, including myself, who transition when they are adults and live an established life, I did have a period of confusion. More self-doubt than actual confusion, really. I doubted what I had started to realize about myself. There are lots of things that cause doubt. I feared what would become of me, my marriage, my friendships, and my family relationships. I wondered if I decided to transition, would I be making the wrong decision? I doubted I was really trans. But then, I began to realize that cis people (non-trans people) don't doubt their gender. they just don't. And I am. This was a period of confusion and self-doubt that lasted about 3 years before I finally came to the decision to transition. I'm not confused any longer, though. I'm more whole. I'm happier, and more confident.

For children, that confusion might never occur. Unfortunately for me, I didn't know when I was a child. Or if I ever did, it was stamped out and repressed by my father and later myself as I grew older. So the confusion had roots how society treats gender, gender roles and expectations, and sex as opposed to confusion about who I really am.

Anyway, on bathrooms- I think that trans people should be free to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. It becomes more difficult and muddy for non-binary trans people and trans people who don't "pass" as the gender with which they identify. I "pass" as a woman. I use the womens restrooms. I'd be more likely get beat up, sneered at, or assaulted if I had to use the men's room. Non-passing trans people need to be able to go to the safest room for them.

There is no real safety issue for the cis women and girls in the ladies room. There's no evidence that suggests that trans women are a threat in the bathroom. Lesbians use the womens room all the time with no threat. I'm two years on hormones, and my body behaves very similarly to a woman's body- except that I lack a uterus, ovaries, etc. I'm pretty much just like any other woman going into the bathroom. I go to pee, wash my hands, maybe brush my hair, and go.

I also think it's smart for place with public bathrooms to do two things to make users more secure- make better stalls that go from the floor to the ceiling and don't have cracks that people can look through. This isn't because of trans people, but it will help people feel safer in the restroom. And two- have a single-occupancy family restroom available to the public. This might be welcomed by non-passing trans people and non-binary trans people as well as sexual assault survivors.

But really, it's a fabricated issue, and trans people have been using the restroom of their choice for decades and decades without real issue.
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23-02-2017, 12:11 PM
RE: The resurrection
You have a compelling story and express it well. You should write it up. You could make millions if you titled it "How Transgenderism Made Me A Christian". We're all gonna have to pretend to be Chrisitians soon enough anyway.

(23-02-2017 11:45 AM)Emma Wrote:  Anyway, on bathrooms- I think that trans people should be free to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. It becomes more difficult and muddy for non-binary trans people and trans people who don't "pass" as the gender with which they identify. I "pass" as a woman. I use the womens restrooms. I'd be more likely get beat up, sneered at, or assaulted if I had to use the men's room. Non-passing trans people need to be able to go to the safest room for them.

That all sounds like common sense which usually means some idiot's gonna feel compelled to fuck it up. Would these laws require you to use the men's room? I really don't think these people have thought this through. Would they rather have their daughters see you in the restroom or Buck Angel? 'Cause I think Buck Angel would be legally compelled to use the woman's room by these laws.

[Image: buck%20angel_zpswrbjpc2p.png]

#sigh
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23-02-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 12:11 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You have a compelling story and express it well. You should write it up. You could make millions if you titled it "How Transgenderism Made Me A Christian". We're all gonna have to pretend to be Chrisitians soon enough anyway.

(23-02-2017 11:45 AM)Emma Wrote:  Anyway, on bathrooms- I think that trans people should be free to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity. It becomes more difficult and muddy for non-binary trans people and trans people who don't "pass" as the gender with which they identify. I "pass" as a woman. I use the womens restrooms. I'd be more likely get beat up, sneered at, or assaulted if I had to use the men's room. Non-passing trans people need to be able to go to the safest room for them.

That all sounds like common sense which usually means some idiot's gonna feel compelled to fuck it up. Would these laws require you to use the men's room? I really don't think these people have thought this through. Would they rather have their daughters see you in the restroom or Buck Angel? 'Cause I think Buck Angel would be legally compelled to use the woman's room by these laws.

[Image: buck%20angel_zpswrbjpc2p.png]

Thank you Girly.

Yep, Buck Angel would be required to use the women's room, and I would be required to use the men's room. To do this would be very risky for me. I'm a small person, 5'5", I wouldn't likely be able to defend myself against a belligerent dude.
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23-02-2017, 12:41 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 11:45 AM)Emma Wrote:  There is no real safety issue for the cis women and girls in the ladies room. There's no evidence that suggests that trans women are a threat in the bathroom. Lesbians use the women's room all the time with no threat [...]

I'm sorry, but I have to let you know that I find the "cis" prefix offensive.

The word itself—as the neologism "cissexual"—is a very recent addition to the English language, and was made up by sexologist Volkmar Sigusch in his 1998 essay "The Neosexual Revolution". And it wasn't added to the Oxford English Dictionary until 2013.

As a male, I describe myself, initially, as heterosexual or—more clinically—as gender-normative. I also think that it's condescending whenever a non-normative gendered person opts to put their own label on me. I would never define myself as a "cis-man".

And as far as you situation goes Emma, I have no particular issues with how you choose to define yourself, either privately or publicly, and I certainly wouldn't presume to put my own label on you.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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23-02-2017, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 23-02-2017 01:08 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 12:41 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I have to let you know that I find the "cis" prefix offensive.

Cisgender is the proper clinical term. At least that's the term the people who publish on pubmed use.

Wow. There's a shitload of different gradations.

Gender - denotes the public (and usually legally recognized) lived role as boy or girl, man or woman. Biological factors combined with social and psychological factors contribute to gender development.
Assigned gender - refers to a person’s initial assignment as male or female at birth. It is based on the child’s genitalia and other visible physical sex characteristics.
Gender-atypical - refers to physical features or behaviors that are not typical of individuals of the same assigned gender in a given society.
Gender-nonconforming - refers to behaviors that are not typical of individuals with the same assigned gender in a given society.
Gender reassignment - denotes an official (and usually legal) change of gender.
Gender identity - is a category of social identity and refers to an individual’s identification as male, female or, occasionally, some category other than male or female. It is one’s deeply held core sense of being male, female, some of both or neither, and does not always correspond to biological sex.
Gender dysphoria - as a general descriptive term refers to an individual’s discontent with the assigned gender. It is more specifically defined when used as a diagnosis.
Transgender - refers to the broad spectrum of individuals who transiently or persistently identify with a gender different from their gender at birth. (Note: the term transgendered is not generally used.)
Transsexual - refers to an individual who seeks, or has undergone, a social transition from male to female or female to male. In many, but not all, cases this also involves a physical transition through cross-sex hormone treatment and genital surgery (sex reassignment surgery).
Genderqueer - blurring the lines around gender identity and sexual orientation. Genderqueer individuals typically embrace a fluidity of gender identity and sometimes sexual orientation.
Gender fluidity - having different gender identities at different times.
Agendered - ‘without gender,’ individuals identifying as having no gender identity.
Cisgender - describes individuals whose gender identity or expression aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth.
Gender expansiveness - conveys a wider, more flexible range of gender identity and/or expression than typically associated with the binary gender system.
Gender expression - the manner in which a person communicates about gender to others through external means such as clothing, appearance, or mannerisms. This communication may be conscious or subconscious and may or may not reflect their gender identity or sexual orientation.

Genderqueer makes me giggle. I have no idea what it means but it makes me giggle. I think there's more than one in there that seem to imply consorting with farm animals.

#sigh
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23-02-2017, 12:58 PM
RE: The resurrection
Or maybe, just maybe, we can have toilets which afford everyone, regardless of sex, gender and pretty much everything, the privacy and safety to go about their business and go on with their day, without a second thought and without making a huge drama out of a non-existing issue.

How about having a society which affords everyone the respect, acceptance and safety they deserve as human beings - hell, as living things - as opposed to spending your life feeling threatened/hated/ostracised because of your sexuality/gender/race/insert-totally-unimportant-and-random-reason-for-discrimination-of-your-choice-here.

Also, what's wrong with unisex toilets? We had them at my uni in Sweden and they were great (hell, there was even a TV in the waiting area or whatever that part was). Hell, we have unisex toilets even in my somewhat backwards part of Eastern Europe.

Seriously, even at my age I still cannot understand our obsession with other people's genitalia and sexuality. Unless you're attracted to someone (and even then, I always thought one was attracted to/loved the person, not a handful of their *numerous* internal and/or external organs), what's it to you who they are, how they were born, how they perceive themselves and who they have (or don't) have sex with?

I am certainly not in the habit of quoting actors as if they were some sort of final authority on stuff, but I'm really with Cillian Murphy (who, btw, makes a GREAT woman in this little film I quite enjoyed when I saw it some time ago) on this: "To me, someone's sexuality is usually the least interesting thing about them. It's secondary. The only reason it becomes a source for dramatic storytelling is because people have made such an issue out of it."


Yeah, sorry, that was off topic. As for the resurrection - how can it be historically attested, when there's no proof that Jaysus himself even existed? Facepalm

PS. Am also reminded of this wonderful quote of the lovely (and departed way too soon) Octavia Butler: "Human beings fear difference,” Lilith had told him once. “Oankali crave difference. Humans persecute their different ones, yet they need them to give themselves definition and status." The tribal instinct, the us-and-them mentality - that will be the death of us as a species if we don't finally outgrow it.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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23-02-2017, 01:00 PM (This post was last modified: 23-02-2017 01:14 PM by Emma.)
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 12:41 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 11:45 AM)Emma Wrote:  There is no real safety issue for the cis women and girls in the ladies room. There's no evidence that suggests that trans women are a threat in the bathroom. Lesbians use the women's room all the time with no threat [...]

I'm sorry, but I have to let you know that I find the "cis" prefix offensive.

The word itself—as the neologism "cissexual"—is a very recent addition to the English language, and was made up by sexologist Volkmar Sigusch in his 1998 essay "The Neosexual Revolution". And it wasn't added to the Oxford English Dictionary until 2013.

As a male, I describe myself, initially, as heterosexual or—more clinically—as gender-normative. I also think that it's condescending whenever a non-normative gendered person opts to put their own label on me. I would never define myself as a "cis-man".

And as far as you situation goes Emma, I have no particular issues with how you choose to define yourself, either privately or publicly, and I certainly wouldn't presume to put my own label on you.

Okay. I'm meant no offense by the term, I'm sorry about that.

I am aware of some of its history, and that it has its roots in the Latin "cis-" meaning "on this side of", while "trans-" means "on the other side of". It's like the term "heterosexual" in that way. If there were not "homosexual" individuals, then we'd have no need for the term "heterosexual" yet you yourself said you identify as "heterosexual gender-normative"- or, what I hear is- a "normal straight person".

You prefer a term for me which indicates that I am "not normal", and you are "normal". That doesn't make me feel good either, my friend, and it only alienates me further. Why does this term offend you? I don't understand. Have you been assaulted with it?

Edit: I know there are some trans people out there that do get angry at the treatment they receive from non-trans people and they have slung the term "cis" around aggressively. But that's a (vocal) minority. The majority of us do not use it in such ways. It's simply a descriptive term to indicate someone who is "not trans". So- I promise you that I meant no offense by it. It's the most neutral and concise way of describing a non-transgender person.
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23-02-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: The resurrection
(23-02-2017 12:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-02-2017 12:41 PM)SYZ Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I have to let you know that I find the "cis" prefix offensive.

Cisgender is the proper clinical term. At least that's the term the people who publish on pubmed use.

Wow. There's a shitload of different gradations.

Gender - denotes the public (and usually legally recognized) lived role as boy or girl, man or woman. Biological factors combined with social and psychological factors contribute to gender development.
Assigned gender - refers to a person’s initial assignment as male or female at birth. It is based on the child’s genitalia and other visible physical sex characteristics.
Gender-atypical - refers to physical features or behaviors that are not typical of individuals of the same assigned gender in a given society.
Gender-nonconforming - refers to behaviors that are not typical of individuals with the same assigned gender in a given society.
Gender reassignment - denotes an official (and usually legal) change of gender.
Gender identity - is a category of social identity and refers to an individual’s identification as male, female or, occasionally, some category other than male or female. It is one’s deeply held core sense of being male, female, some of both or neither, and does not always correspond to biological sex.
Gender dysphoria - as a general descriptive term refers to an individual’s discontent with the assigned gender. It is more specifically defined when used as a diagnosis.
Transgender - refers to the broad spectrum of individuals who transiently or persistently identify with a gender different from their gender at birth. (Note: the term transgendered is not generally used.)
Transsexual - refers to an individual who seeks, or has undergone, a social transition from male to female or female to male. In many, but not all, cases this also involves a physical transition through cross-sex hormone treatment and genital surgery (sex reassignment surgery).
Genderqueer - blurring the lines around gender identity and sexual orientation. Genderqueer individuals typically embrace a fluidity of gender identity and sometimes sexual orientation.
Gender fluidity - having different gender identities at different times.
Agendered - ‘without gender,’ individuals identifying as having no gender identity.
Cisgender - describes individuals whose gender identity or expression aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth.
Gender expansiveness - conveys a wider, more flexible range of gender identity and/or expression than typically associated with the binary gender system.
Gender expression - the manner in which a person communicates about gender to others through external means such as clothing, appearance, or mannerisms. This communication may be conscious or subconscious and may or may not reflect their gender identity or sexual orientation.

Genderqueer makes me giggle. I have no idea what it means but it makes me giggle. I think there's more than one in there that seem to imply consorting with farm animals.

naw- they don't imply anything beastial, Girly Laugh out load

But yes, there are a lot of terms.

God this thread is so derailed. I'm sorry folks!
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